E85 and water injection?

FullBoostRacing · Sep 18, 2009, 02:36 PM

So I am running E85 on one of my Evos now and have a spare Snow stage 2 kit doing nothing.

Has anyone done any testing with water injection on E85?

I think meth might be over kill for the E85 but I would want to know if anyone has tried water on E85.

gsr0801 · Sep 18, 2009, 02:45 PM

Good question. I would love to find out too.

Red Dragon · Sep 18, 2009, 07:20 PM

I was also wondering about this.
It just popped in my head today for an Formula Sae kart build. Is it benificiary to run a E85 and meth combo?
Some one needs to do a test. I have been searching on the internet about this but i have yet to find legitimate proof. Just speculation.
Is the Meth cooling abilities, good enough to make the extra power? Or am i just better off with E85?
VENDORS AND TUNERS DO A DYNO TEST FOR ME!

hediki12 · Sep 18, 2009, 07:53 PM

i think it should have some benefits seeing that meth is 114 oct and e85 is like 100-105 oct

FullBoostRacing · Sep 18, 2009, 08:53 PM

I know the oct. boost will be there but what about cooling? Is there such a thing as to much of a good thing when it comes to this topic?

I think I might give it a go as I am buying 1000cc's and a dual pump setup soon.

yahu · Sep 18, 2009, 08:56 PM

Previous to going meth (and still waiting on e85) I had read threads of people doing this, and it was most certainly overkill (which isn't necessarily a bad thing). Lack of e85 in the area hasn't pushed me into more research yet.

*edit - search "e85 meth" and search the titles only. I got a half-page of hits, or so. There is bound to be something to go off of.

FullBoostRacing · Sep 18, 2009, 11:05 PM

I was thinking some more about this..

Correct me if I am wrong, but because of the high oct. of E85 does that not make it a good fail safe?

If your meth fails with a small nozzle size (larger size not needed because of the e85 oct. bump) your chances of over running the engine goes WAY down. Plus with the e85 and meth your oct. lev would be around 125ish???

Then could you max out timing on the stock ECU?

yahu · Sep 23, 2009, 10:49 PM

I don't know that I would rely on it to be a failsafe, so to speak, but I would think it would have less tendency to go horribly wrong. You'd be tuned for e85 + meth so if all of a sudden meth isn't working I imagine you would still see problems arise (AFR off at least).

John F · Sep 24, 2009, 09:57 AM

Probably not worth it. MBT can be achieved on E85 before knock. In other words you can get to a point where adding timing makes no difference to power and starts to increase cylinder pressure to destructive levels.

esevo · Sep 24, 2009, 11:41 PM

Ever heard of liquid compression? lol E85 + Methanol being injected at twice the amount of gasoline will produce almost 2x's the carbon monoxide in the cylinder causing less combustible air to be burned upon ignition.

My theory is that a motor is a air pump. The more air you pump the more power,TQ. If your filling up the cylinder with 2x's the fuel as before then add meth and all the C0 from the fuel how much left will be for good combustible air?

The only way it could be beneficial is during the hotter months, jets are smaller and further away from TB to produce the most cooling of the air. Allowing for the most dense air shoved in there with all that extra fuel+C0.

On the other side of the spectrum my 100oct +100% direct port water injection setup is showing amazing results so far!

John F is right, you get to the limit with alcohol. That is why Rally F1 and many many others don't use it as a primary fuel. Yet so many people act like running such a corrosive fuel (even with 15% gasoline) a new thing lol.

Evan Smith

hediki12 · Oct 18, 2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esevo

Ever heard of liquid compression? lol E85 + Methanol being injected at twice the amount of gasoline will produce almost 2x's the carbon monoxide in the cylinder causing less combustible air to be burned upon ignition.

My theory is that a motor is a air pump. The more air you pump the more power,TQ. If your filling up the cylinder with 2x's the fuel as before then add meth and all the C0 from the fuel how much left will be for good combustible air?

The only way it could be beneficial is during the hotter months, jets are smaller and further away from TB to produce the most cooling of the air. Allowing for the most dense air shoved in there with all that extra fuel+C0.

On the other side of the spectrum my 100oct +100% direct port water injection setup is showing amazing results so far!

John F is right, you get to the limit with alcohol. That is why Rally F1 and many many others don't use it as a primary fuel. Yet so many people act like running such a corrosive fuel (even with 15% gasoline) a new thing lol.

Evan Smith

nitros ... e85 alky and no2.... going by your theory that would be a good set up....

KiiD2X · Oct 19, 2009, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hediki12

nitros ... e85 alky and no2.... going by your theory that would be a good set up....

Hahaha! For some odd reason I've been thinking about my first few mods being E85 conversion, Meth kit, and a 50 shot...lol oh and tune of course.

Idk though im really considering this. Seems to be the biggest bang for the buck from what I searched, but I still haven't found anything on anyone doing all three.

esevo · Oct 19, 2009, 10:02 PM

Well because there is really no point to doing all three. Its over kill and not practical. I promise I can make great power on a 50/50 mixture.

For example:
1. Evo 8 GT35R E85 30PSI 2.0L other tuner
VS
2. Evo 8 GT30R 50/50 HFS6 30psi 2.0L Tuned by me.

Car number 2 beat car 1 by a car and a half this past weekend. Sure tuning has something to do with it and other factors.

Not directed towards anyone; but so many evo'mers think because a shop does something (parts) to a all out shop car, Or if a high budget build that a member may drive only on the weekends but claims to be "daily driven worthy", that its suitable to be tried true and easy to use on any evo every day. Same goes for power just cause some shops have cars that are 600 whp and running 9's means that any car here that makes the same power should do the exact same. Its not true!

The truth of the matter is we as a community are loosing focus on making so much power for the cheapest buck that its driving me nuts. I can make a old B13 SE-R turbo and 300 whp for under 4k and probably beat most evo's on this forum. Power to weight lol. We own 20k plus evos we can save a little for race gas on the weekends lol

IMO E85 is a great fuel but not practical for a car that will see anymore than 3 days a week on the street. For a race car sure make sense.

Nos, well is awesome, unstable and rarely used or setup correctly. When it is, its a great option.

Injection of meth h20 or both is like nos when its setup properly its amazing, but when people go cheap on kits or give little time for proper installation and tuning results will not be as good as they really can be.

Evan Smith