Need advice on tuning meth

raasfaas · May 2, 2009, 02:50 PM

I've been doing lots of research on the best approach to tuning meth, but after getting on the dyno and doing it hands on, I have a few questions that I would like to get cleared up.
Background, its basically just a stock IX with mods in my sig, with the recent addition of an ETS FMIC, ARP head studs, denso plugs IKH24, and now running 75/25 meth/water instead.
So after getting my pump tune to an acceptable level, 346hp 330tq @22lbs (btw I live in Jamaica with crappy 90oct at the pump) I got on to tuning my meth maps. I had already done some road tuning at 29psi so on my first pull I made 377hp 379tq @29lbs afr low 12's on spool up tapering to mid 11's by peak tq, then holding somewhat steady at 11.3-.4 till redline. I was running a little conservative on the timing 4* at peak, 12* up top, so I started to bump it up a bit. After a few pulls at the same boost level I disappointingly lost a little power but gained some tq...371hp 390tq while fighting off some consistent knock after 5500rpm. But I guess what had me a little was the fact that the timing map isn't too far off from my pump map, and I'm only running about .4 point leaner. With 75/25 I would have thought I could get a little more timing out of it.
-Do you think I'm running out of breath with the turbo? 23-29lbs and gained only 30hp
-would leaning it out a bit more help.
Sorry to sound so all over the place but my time on the dyno was limited so I'm just seeking any advice from the meth people.

Didn't have any of the dyno sheets, but DLL was pretty close.
Here is one of my pump runs:

Here is one of the meth runs:

cij911 · May 3, 2009, 07:39 AM

A few thoughts --

(1) 30+ hp and 40+ ft/lbs gain is a pretty significant
(2) Sounds like you could get more if you figured out the 5500+ rpm knock issue -- did you play with MIVEC ?
(3) Sounds like you're running richer now (than before when we chatted over PM) but that won't rob you of that many hp -- so OK
(4) What do your spark plugs look like
(5) You may want to consider a better FMIC if you are going to be over spinning the turbo (blowing hot air)
(6) I agree your timing looks a little off (I am seeing ~15/16* at redline) -- w/ ~5 hp / * that could account for 10 - 15hp

Sounds like you are maxing out the system....

raasfaas · May 3, 2009, 05:00 PM

Hey whats up cij,

-yeah I agree, 30hp/40tq is a good deal more, I just wanted to see if this increase is expected based on the amount of boost I'm running now.
-funny enough, currently I'm running your mivec map, the one you sent via email the other day. It seems to work pretty well...are you still running that map? Yea I have some logging to do to see whats going on at 5500rpm
-based on some info I got from the meth guys, I was told that 50/50 is most optimum a little leaner (11.9-12.2 range) but since I've decided to go 75/25, I need to run a little richer...I hope that still holds true
-my plugs look good, normal slight rusty look, electrode and tip looks good...wasn't too sure if I should have stayed with the stock ones, but I figured going one step colder couldn't hurt things.
-I dunno man, I think the FMIC is pretty good, it's the 4" ETS...actually the 3.5" was recommended to me, but I thought the bigger the better, so I went with the 4". I do agree though, I think the turbo is blowing hot air up there.
-I think I'm going to try dropping a couple lbs and see what I can get out of it with some more fine tuning...especially the timing maps.
Thanks for the reply bro, I got some work to do.
Anybody with any other thoughts??

cij911 · May 3, 2009, 09:07 PM

I did not know you had the ETS 4" -- that should be more than enough....How are you logging boost (how do you know you are at 29psi) ?? Please post boost graph and your logs...

raasfaas · May 4, 2009, 12:03 AM

I'm reading boost based on my AEM truboost, and also via jdm map which I'm pretty sure is scaled right (logging with ign on but car off I get 0.00347)
Sorry I wasn't logging my jdm map at the time of the runs, I was trying to cut down on logging items to get a better power run for dll.
CIJ I just pm'd you.
Just need to know if there is a specific approach to tuning meth.

cij911 · May 4, 2009, 07:08 AM

I don't think there is a different approach, but a few things jumped out at me looking at your logs:

(1) Your knock starts at 4400 RPM and it looks like your timing dropped concurrently 2 * -- look at your timing maps and fix that spot

(2) AFRS look a tad rich in the 4000 - 4400 range

(3) You are seeing 15* at 7200 rpm (which is similar to me from memory) but you are knocking throughout....You may want to remove 1 degree from 4000 - 6000 and see how that works for you...I have found that just 1* can make a big difference (oddly)...

rolly1818 · May 4, 2009, 07:36 AM

can you post up your logs? i would like to take a look. i got similar mods and heading towards water/meth because of the s**t gas here in Trinidad.

ur numbers look good. what kind of dyno was this?

esevo · May 4, 2009, 09:46 AM

I would switch it back to 50/50 lean it out more towards 12.0-12.2 and you will see more power. If you add the timing you will see a little more TQ. Try that for now. Also insure your failsafes are set up. The water removes the extra heat that is created by the leaner AFRs and will allow for more safer power.

GL

Evan Smith

raasfaas · May 4, 2009, 10:16 AM

cij - yeah I have been working on the timing map and it does seem like I'm really trying to force the car to run timing...I'll straighten out the fuel at that spot and pull a degree and see how that goes. I don't know if its just my car, but 1 count of knock pulls a degree of timing for me...I had asked this to some of the gurus because I remember hearing that it takes 3 counts to pull 1 degree, but apparently not in my case.

rolly - it was a dynojet...don't get me wrong this thing really works, I just want to know that I'm getting the most out of it based on the results I've seen and heard from others out there using it.
Is there any other way of posting the logs here (a different format), unfortunately I don't have winzip on my laptop...pm me ur email address and I'll send it across

esevo - hey Evan, I remember you telling me this the other day over email when you were helping me with my maps, I just wanted to see which one the car liked better, I was running 50/50 at first just like you recommended with afr's 11.8-12.0 but with less timing and the car felt good, just want to see how it responds to this setup.

Thanks.

rolly1818 · May 4, 2009, 10:30 AM

Quote:

rolly - it was a dynojet...don't get me wrong this thing really works, I just want to know that I'm getting the most out of it based on the results I've seen and heard from others out there using it.
Is there any other way of posting the logs here (a different format), unfortunately I don't have winzip on my laptop...pm me ur email address and I'll send it across

Alt+Prnt Screen, then paste in paint and save. then u can host on photobucket.

no offence but right now ur only getting cj's opinion(not doubting his competence in anyway!)

lol.

raasfaas · May 4, 2009, 11:48 PM

No it's not only cij that I'm getting feedback from, there are a few other people that I've been talking to that have had great results from using meth. Right now I'm just trying to see which mix my car likes best, like esevo had recommended, I was running 50/50 mix with a much leaner afr, now I'm trying 75/25 to compare.
I just finished making a few adjustments to my maps, my afr still needs a little straightening out...here's the log:

wreckleford · May 13, 2009, 11:17 AM

Which jet are you using? If you are using the smallest size try stepping up to the next one.

Evo8Emperor · May 13, 2009, 03:57 PM

Yah I was going to say that. Ive been tuning my own maps for my meth kit and I think I have been having good results.

I myself have upped my timing by about 6 points in general at peak torque and up from there to red line. Also have the boost up to 27 psi at peak torque tapering to a high 22 psi logged via jdm map.

Ive only added a degree of timing at a time and would adjust the meth from there. If I was getting knock after upping the timing I would either raise the gain on the meth kit or my horse power level and it would allow me to go even further. Im on a m7 jet right now spraying at about 60-70%. I still have a m10 jet and a dual nozzle upgrade.

Curious also as to what meth kit you are running ?

raasfaas · May 13, 2009, 11:57 PM

wreckleford - I am on the largest jet AEM has, 550cc/min

Evo8 - I'm running an AEM kit, I have it set to start spraying at 11psi and full spray at 21psi. You're running 6 more degrees at peak torque on meth for a total of how much? Unfortunately the AEM kit doesn't allow for much fine tuning, basically it's just nozzle size, and boost based start/full spray. What I have found is that when the meth comes on full spray my afr goes real rich, and to get it to smooth out I have a big jump in my fuel table from cell to cell when the meth hits full...almost .8 of a point.

Evo8Emperor · May 14, 2009, 04:24 AM

Im running 7 degrees of timing at peak torque I believe and 21 or 22 degrees at red line.

I would have turned up my boost more but my HKS evc is maxxed out. I was only seeing 25 psi so I tightened my wastegate by two full turns and now Im seeing 27-28 psi.

Im about to step up to my m10 nozzle just so my m7 is maxxed out like it is now.

Im running the labonte meth kit with the new vcs-g3 screen and I have my start boost at 5 psi and the monitor does the rest from there based on IDC and horse power level.