Meth and Water ?? - Page 2

SlowCar · Feb 21, 2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raasfaas

cij - if you don't mind sharing, what kind of timing #'s are you running now. I cant seem to get more than 4* at peak and 14* up top without knocking. My AFR's are fairly safe (considering I'm 50/50) 11.3-.4 at spool up/peak and 11.6-.7 from 5500rpm till redline.
My next approach is to lower boost a little and see if I can get some more timing in there.

how do you know if your system is injecting...or not?

raasfaas · Feb 21, 2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowCar

how do you know if your system is injecting...or not?

well when I'm on my pump gas map, I'm normally 11.2-.3 up top, when I turn on the meth it goes a little richer, like 10.8-.9 so I know its spraying.
I wonder if I have it coming on too soon (9psi) because I was told that injecting too early can induce knock. I have it full spraying by 22psi.

esevo · Feb 21, 2009, 08:14 PM

Guys if you would like Ill take a look at your maps... Email esevo1@gmail.com

What boost are both of you running?

Raasfaas, It does seem it comes in to early try setting it to 15 psi having full spray by 20...

Here is a basic map I did, however this was not his final. This is running on my friends evo IX with a HFS-5 Aquamist system. AZ 91 oct 50/50 water meth. This car is running 30psi stock IX turbo, block, cams ect ect. Running 2 1.0mm jets. (800+cc's) stock intercooler and piping. This car made 353 whp and 368 TQ on a mustang dyno. Lean spool is enabeld on this car on this basic starting map.

AFRS are 12.3's to 12.5s through out the whole pull (3rd) gear. 5th gear is 11.5's - 11.8's
Timing is 7* at peak TQ Going up to 18 by redline.

The number one trick is AFRS with water, next is timing... Jet size and placing is also key to proper atomazation/cooling of the cylinders

esevo · Feb 21, 2009, 08:35 PM

This is the only graph I have of his car...

cij911 · Feb 23, 2009, 08:12 AM

Evan -- Thanks for the information! Your AFRs are a good point leaner than mine and you're getting no knock! I have no idea why / how that could be, but I guess you may be getting more meth / water than I...I'll send you a map after I have made a few more tweaks. I am trying to run a peak of 28psi tapering to 20/21.

It looks like you were definitely pushing more water/meth than I, so that could be one of the factors.

esevo · Feb 23, 2009, 09:44 AM

^^^ Yes that is a big factor to effective cooling. See if you can add a second jet, or up your jet size.

Like I have always said Methanol is just like Race gas and a really cold IC, but its not nearly as effective as removing heat from the cylinder as H20.

1. Set your boost.
The boost will affect peak TQ rather than peak HP.
2. Set your AFRs.
This is the biggest factor with H20, The leaner the better. Try low 12's for street and drag you will see the best results.
3. And last set timing.
As peak boost and afrs have a direct effect of maximum timing.

**If road racing or auto x is what your doing, make sure it runs rich (low 11's)Power should not be your number 1 worry

**

**This is setup is for IX's with a mivec head. 8's generally require more timing and more fuel.**

Why AFR's???

14.7 show to be the best power and economy, on a Turbo car 13's seem to be the best. Why can’t they run those afrs under full load? because of heat. They would melt the motors down or knock them to shreds. So they use extra fuel to cool the motor down. When they put the extra fuel in just to "cool", CO takes place of good air. When water is sprayed in the effective cooling goes way up and the need for extra fuel is no longer needed. So when you take out the fuel you free up a lot of Good air that can now be burned, and you put the motor near or at its best AFRS making the best power.

Not that water itself made the power like meth, but rather it allows for a lot more power. Methanol just adds to the total amount of fuel, and you can’t lean it out nearly as far, however timing can be increased because of the higher octane value. When you mix them you get the best of both worlds.

Evan Smith

cij911 · Feb 23, 2009, 10:24 AM

^^ Wow very interesting....I am about to go out and do a few more logs...I'll let you know what I find. Thanks

cij911 · Feb 23, 2009, 01:17 PM

OK well now I seem to be OK -- running 27.2 peak psi (in 3rd gear) @3900 tapering to 21.2psi @ 7250...Timing goes from 3* @3500 to 13* @7250...My AFRSs are much richer than Evan suggested ~10.8 - 11.1 in 3rd gear from 3700 to 7250...I guess I can now see if I can lean AFRs up a tad and gain anything...

I think the BIG change was MIVEC -- thanks to MrFred and others....

cij911 · Feb 23, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowCar

how do you know if your system is injecting...or not?

Abner -- Hey I would love to pick your brain regarding meth and meth/water...One question I have related to Meth / Water is the mixing -- is there a chance for the meth to not really mix evenly with the water, thus changing the effects upon injection?

SlowCar · Feb 23, 2009, 02:03 PM

water and methanol mixture is completely miscible - 1water/99meth or 99water/1meth, both will mix just as well.

SlowCar · Feb 23, 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esevo

^^^ Yes that is a big factor to effective cooling. See if you can add a second jet, or up your jet size.

Like I have always said Methanol is just like Race gas and a really cold IC, but its not nearly as effective as removing heat from the cylinder as H20.

1. Set your boost.
The boost will affect peak TQ rather than peak HP.
2. Set your AFRs.
This is the biggest factor with H20, The leaner the better. Try low 12's for street and drag you will see the best results.
3. And last set timing.
As peak boost and afrs have a direct effect of maximum timing.

**If road racing or auto x is what your doing, make sure it runs rich (low 11's)Power should not be your number 1 worry

**

**This is setup is for IX's with a mivec head. 8's generally require more timing and more fuel.**

Why AFR's???

14.7 show to be the best power and economy, on a Turbo car 13's seem to be the best. Why can’t they run those afrs under full load? because of heat. They would melt the motors down or knock them to shreds. So they use extra fuel to cool the motor down. When they put the extra fuel in just to "cool", CO takes place of good air. When water is sprayed in the effective cooling goes way up and the need for extra fuel is no longer needed. So when you take out the fuel you free up a lot of Good air that can now be burned, and you put the motor near or at its best AFRS making the best power.

Not that water itself made the power like meth, but rather it allows for a lot more power. Methanol just adds to the total amount of fuel, and you can’t lean it out nearly as far, however timing can be increased because of the higher octane value. When you mix them you get the best of both worlds.

Evan Smith

Evan, help me tune my car

esevo · Feb 23, 2009, 02:42 PM

For you buddy anything!

Turbo Kyle · Feb 23, 2009, 02:58 PM

Good info here

raasfaas · Feb 23, 2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cij911

I think the BIG change was MIVEC -- thanks to MrFred and others....

I haven't really fooled around with the mivec map that much...think I might need to look into it. Hey cij keep me posted on your results.

esevo · Feb 23, 2009, 04:50 PM

Mivec should be done first.

Set it and never play with it unless you change cams or turbo.

Evan Smith