Aquamist myths and views... HFS-5

[Richard L]

It is a good time to express some of our views and discuss some perceived view from the water injection communities. Comments from non-aquamist users, public image tagged to our products and the company.

Aquamist has always been transparent to any question asked about our product. We will always answer any questions regardless of degrees of complexity. All questions are important to us, especially to those who just entered the water injection world. I would like to highlight our designed aims, views and explains the myths surrounding our HFS system cost.

The pump motor:
Problem: In order to attain high system pressure, the motor has to endure higher electrical load that causes winding temperature rise.

AQ solutions: This is rather simple one to solve, put a more powerful motor to drive the pump head . We decided to go for the most powerful motor shurflo offers on the 8000 series pump – a 150W motor. It runs cooler so less stressful to the motor winding. It also runs quieter.


The demand switch:
Problem: Until the release of the HFS-5, almost all third party water injection systems offered use a "demand switched" pump. The switch is originally intended for intermittent usage and not for "cyclic" usage.

If the demand switch is usage in a "rapid" cyclic mode, the pump motor will experience a very high starting current, as much as 4X. These high current surges put unnecessary stresses to the motor brushes. Due to the relatively low flow requirement demanded from the pump, the demand switch will cycle quite rapidly, as much as 3 to 4 times a second.

The high current pulses will erode demand switch contacts as well as motor brush life. It also promotes pulsed delivery to your engine. Each pulse has a pressure differential of ~20psi. Imagine your fuel injectors doing the same.

AQ solutions: We have asked Shurflo to build us a custom specified pump for this purpose, they agreed – to my relief. So the custom pump uses three internal by-pass valves to relief any over-pressure produced by the pump and keeps it a stable 125psi, regardless of the demand range. Why 125 psi you may ask… Since the Aquamist uses a high speed valve to control water flow and does not require high pressure to change flow as in the non-aquamist pump-speed based system. Those systems require a wide pressure span to change flow. Compared to the Aquamist system, the “pump-speed based” still falls short of the aquamist system’s dynamic range by a factor of 10! Not mentioning the response time, may discuss this if prompted.


High cost of an Aquamist system:
Problems: We have been accused of over-charging many a times. This is based on a ill-informed assumption painted to the masses. “Why pay more since the both systems deliver fluid progressively?” Well, I can tell you, they are not the same!

AQ solutions: We have managed to alleviate some UK/USA exchange rate pressure by buying the pump from Shurflo USA. We resisted the temptation to source the fitting and water jet from a home depot type of shops and re-badge it under our name, putting them in a bag along with a roll of plumber’s tape. Not many people are pleased to turn their engine bay into a plumbing show room.

We decided to invest on our own machine shop, designed making our own components and some special fittings. This way we can make rapid improvement and delivery a well-engineering solution to fuel a completely new industry. Until the marketing has grown to a proportion equivalent to an oil heater market, the cost will remain high, but Aquamist users can enjoy something unique and purposely design, something they can be proud of rather a cocktail of parts sourced from home depot. Higher price is reflected on the performance and product components and not into our pockets.


Conclusion:
Water injection will never become a mass market product, at least in my life time. It will always be enjoyed and used by many who know the benefits. If at anytime you would like to try the concept, be sure doing your research first, the performance of a pump-speed system will never match the performance of a PWM valve system – The HFS-5 we have just released is nearest to an OE fuel injection system. HFS-1 is your first step into a refined and well engineered system.

You can always trust Aquamist supplies you the best – without compromise.

User manual download

[SlowCar]

thought i'll share a side by side comparison of the pump on my HFS-1 system and the "on-demand" pump everyone else uses.

[Richard L]

Thank you abner,

I know the Water injection market is a very cut throat one, price seemed to be leading the sales and not "qualilty" and "substance" .

It appeared cycling of the demand switch affecting flow fluctuation is not conveyed to the end users, even it is not recommended by Shurflo.

[94AWDcoupe]

Originally Posted by Richard L

Thank you abner,

I know the Water injection market is a very cut throat one, price seemed to be leading the sales and not "qualilty" and "substance" .

It appeared cycling of the demand switch affecting flow fluctuation is not conveyed to the end users, even it is not recommended by Shurflo.

The alkycontrol setup does not cycle the pump through the switch. They did a long time ago. But current kits use the switch to simply flop L.E.D from red to green. Red is when system is armed, green is switch pressure factory set at 30 psi. So when your L.E.D is green it means the jet is seeing pressure. The pump voltage is varied by the controller. pump turns on with 6 volts and vlotage is ramped up to 12-13 for increased flow. Initial pressure is like 60psi and ramps to 200+ psi. Not a bad sytem really. Just dont like the overrun issues .

I hate to be bearer of bad news but eliminating the switch setup only solves half the problems with the sureflow pumps. The other half of the problem is the diaphram shrinks over time using 100% methanol. Once the diaphram shrinks output psi drops and the pump starts leaking. I just took apart the augamist pump to take a look at the check valves. I can confirm the diaphram being used is the same material as the alkycontrol pumps. While some rave about having pumps last two years without issue, I am not getting those results. The pumps last about a year for a good one, most are failing after just a few months.

Alky control does not use the small motor pump either. They use the same size pump as the auqamist. This problem with the diaphram wouldn't be so bad if sureflow would sell the diaphram separately. My understanding is you have to buy the whole pump to get one. It would be no big deal to me to sawp out a 10$ diaphram every few months to insure reliabilty. but as it is now I am buying new pumps every few months and it is getting annoying to say the least.

Thsi whole issue of of an alky sytem needing a good "failsafe" just attests to the unreliabilty of the sytems out. factory fuel sytems are bulletproff reliable. Most go 300,000miles without any issues whatsoever, no failsafes needed. I want an alky injection system that doesn't need a failsafe.

[SlowCar]

http://www.santoprene.com/site/Resou...ance_guide.pdf
http://www.vp-scientific.com/polypro...properties.htm
http://www.seahorselabware.com/Materials.php
http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240309

the above links indicate that the santoprene diaphgram used in the Shurflo is almost inert to methanol

Will call ExxonMobil in the morning to see if they have any long term test info on methyl alcohol

A question:
could the shrinkage and resultant leakage be caused by running the pump at too high a pressure (200+ psig) and the diaphgram material "stretching/creeping and moving" out of place? Santoprene is afterall a pliable polymeric material...?

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by 94AWDcoupe

The alkycontrol setup does not cycle the pump through the switch. They did a long time ago. But current kits use the switch to simply flop L.E.D from red to green. Red is when system is armed, green is switch pressure factory set at 30 psi. So when your L.E.D is green it means the jet is seeing pressure. The pump voltage is varied by the controller. pump turns on with 6 volts and vlotage is ramped up to 12-13 for increased flow. Initial pressure is like 60psi and ramps to 200+ psi. Not a bad sytem really. Just dont like the overrun issues .

I hate to be bearer of bad news but eliminating the switch setup only solves half the problems with the sureflow pumps. The other half of the problem is the diaphram shrinks over time using 100% methanol. Once the diaphram shrinks output psi drops and the pump starts leaking. I just took apart the augamist pump to take a look at the check valves. I can confirm the diaphram being used is the same material as the alkycontrol pumps. While some rave about having pumps last two years without issue, I am not getting those results. The pumps last about a year for a good one, most are failing after just a few months.

Alky control does not use the small motor pump either. They use the same size pump as the auqamist. This problem with the diaphram wouldn't be so bad if sureflow would sell the diaphram separately. My understanding is you have to buy the whole pump to get one. It would be no big deal to me to sawp out a 10$ diaphram every few months to insure reliabilty. but as it is now I am buying new pumps every few months and it is getting annoying to say the least.

Thsi whole issue of of an alky sytem needing a good "failsafe" just attests to the unreliabilty of the sytems out. factory fuel sytems are bulletproff reliable. Most go 300,000miles without any issues whatsoever, no failsafes needed. I want an alky injection system that doesn't need a failsafe.

Thank you for joining in the topic of pump discussion and system reliability in general. There is nothing like real world data at hand.

We have been experimenting with the Shurflo pump in the early 90s, apart from the size, they have been proven to be extremely reliable, with water.

Leaky issue is normally associated with excess pressure - Shurflo does not make a 8000 series pump that exceeds 150psi - to date. Leaky issue is normally associate with the demand switch seals where it is constantly flexing with pressure, especially with the demand switch type of applications.

All rubber absorbs water and methanol. Certain rubber such as viton (certain grade) and NBR absorbs ethanol more than methanol. For that reason, we rarely recommend our customer using ethanol (denatured) as an injectant. Where there is absorption, there is leak - by definition. High running pressures also promotes higher rate of absorption.

Active metals just as aluminium and zinc plating is prone to corrosion when in contact with alcohol. We have been conducting a long term tests on the drive head option offered by Shurflo.

The alkycontrol system, to their credit has done good work on stretching the capability of their systems more than others. In terms of pressure range and thermal cut-out (by-passed). They have also seal the pump body to avoid water ingression. I have great respect for them for taken the progressive pump speed system to their limit and beyond to improve the operating range. Since the cost of the Shurflo pump is relatively low, replacing the pump yearly is acceptable in exchange for performance.

I believe Alkycontrol uses a 100W motor and we use a 150W. there is a notable size difference if you look carefully. Here is a chart for those to wants to identify which pump they are using.



It will be interesting to see how long our pump will last under your applications, right into the deep end. I am expecting the pump to last a bit longer than those system that relies on high pressure to increase flow. As for those who uses the demand switch as a pressure limiter, good luck to them.

We may in the future bring the current 125psi operating pressure up towards 150psi, But at present, we do not want to take any risks, however minimal.

Our system is designed for trunk mounted, where are intending to install yours - I like to discuss it as I want our system every chance to survive longer than all your previous systems.

[94AWDcoupe]

I was incorrect about the pump size of the alky control. I looked at the photo quickly thinking it was acomparo of 60w and 100w pumps and when I walked outside to compare I realized there was a third larger 150w size pump. But the size of the pump motor is going to have zero affect on how long the diaphram lasts. The 100w motor pushes 250psi. The 60w pump is down at about 150-170psi according to alkycontrol. Hopefully the diaphram will last longer at reduced pressures. My gut feeling is the diapram fails because it soaks in the alky. I dont feel pressure affects the soaking affect. Time will tell.

[SlowCar]

called these guys this morning:

Advanced Elastomer Systems, L.P.
388 South Main Street
Akron, OH 44311
Phone : 1-330-849-5000
1-800-305-8070
Fax : 1-330-849-5599
Email : customersupport@santoprene.com

"santoprene get an "A" rating for chemical compatibility with methyl alcohol"

was their reply. No long term test result available.

[SlowCar]

the diaphragm on the shurflo was designed to run up to 150psig

http://www.shurflo.com/pages/new_ind...ADP_12DVC.html

will it run more than 150psig...yes...but how long.

unless they have custom specs on the diaphgram material to be able to handle higher pressure imposed on the pump...........

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by 94AWDcoupe

I was incorrect about the pump size of the alky control. I looked at the photo quickly thinking it was acomparo of 60w and 100w pumps and when I walked outside to compare I realized there was a third larger 150w size pump. But the size of the pump motor is going to have zero affect on how long the diaphram lasts. The 100w motor pushes 250psi. The 60w pump is down at about 150-170psi according to alkycontrol. Hopefully the diaphram will last longer at reduced pressures. My gut feeling is the diapram fails because it soaks in the alky. I dont feel pressure affects the soaking affect. Time will tell.

I have enquired Shurflo about the the over pressuring the 150psi. They said they might consider designing a new pump for those pressures.

I presume you still have a WI system running in another car of yours? It was a pity that you didn't buy two HFS systems during the GB. Even you don't use it, you won't make a loss if you decided to sell it on.

Are you likely to go beyond 1,500cc/min with the current aquamist setup?

[4G63Rules]

Originally Posted by Richard L

I have enquired Shurflo about the the over pressuring the 150psi. They said they might consider designing a new pump for those pressures.

I presume you still have a WI system running in another car of yours? It was a pity that you didn't buy two HFS systems during the GB. Even you don't use it, you won't make a loss if you decided to sell it on.

Are you likely to go beyond 1,500cc/min with the current aquamist setup?

Actually was going to buy three. But the last six disappeared overnight. I was lucky to be number 25. My most powerful setup injects about 1500cc. I think less can be injected if the rate is controlled with more precision.

[Richard L]

I believe AI performance is offering a HFS-5 GB at present.

What have you got that requires 1500cc/min?

[rocket motor]

Does the water injection increase the MPG? I've searched, but found conflicting answers. Some say it has no effect, while others say that it only works in high compression motors,. etc. What is your experience?

[evovin]

how does this kit compared to perrins?

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by rocket motor

Does the water injection increase the MPG? I've searched, but found conflicting answers. Some say it has no effect, while others say that it only works in high compression motors,. etc. What is your experience?

There are several ways you can save fuel:
- replacing dumping fuel as in-cylinder coolant - dump water instead.
- Enable more timing with low octane fuel - raising the effective octane.
- Run excessive CR or boost and bring the combustion temperature down with Water.

The above conditions are mainly related to medium to WOT. For longer term economy, you need to have a higher CR.