There are failsafes, failsafes and failsafes...

[TTP Engineering]

No one said anything about vehicle travel speed. We are talking about spoolup and boost. Yes I can hit 26psi from a mid to upper rpm in under a second while cruising. Zero to 20psi in less than that. Spoolup is almost too fast to tune on an Evo stock turbo and too fast for the flow sensor lag. The only time spoolup takes more than a second is during a low rpm start dyno pull in a long gear.

This is what is possible from our kit, out of the box without additional sensors that may be too slow reacting. This is on an Evo stock turbo.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by EngineRunup

This is a nice set up. Some most recent WRC car runs port injection. Port injection will help even cylinder distribution a great deal.

Richard

[SlowCar]

Originally Posted by C6C6CH3vo

If one of the four nozzles gets clogged the psi sensor wont notice.

The only way to have a system like that totally failsafe would be four separate flow sensors.

Nonetheless, very clean setup you have.

a flow detection failsafe system with a "settable" operating window will solve this 4 nozzle setup. Say each nozzle sprays 90cc/min, 4*90 = 360cc/min. Set the lower limits of the failsafe to 360cc/min - if the system does not see this minumum flow rate, you will not be able build boost or switch to an aggressive map on a on/off system.

[Richard L]

TTP Engineering,

Would it be possible for you to log a "all-gear run" just to help me confirming that the "on/off" system could be a better bet than a progressive system under dynamic conditions. I may be wrong on that assumption. I read from previous posts from you that you considered on/off system was just as good.

I looked at your published logged data above and am impressived with the flatness of the a/f line. No hurry.

Many thanks,

Richard

[EVO8LTW]

This may be a dumb idea, but another failsafe would be to have redundancy in the system. You could even have a second kit with a second pump, second nozzle, second controller, etc. I've actually given some serious consideration to this as a true failsafe.

[moto17]

Originally Posted by EVO8LTW

This may be a dumb idea, but another failsafe would be to have redundancy in the system. You could even have a second kit with a second pump, second nozzle, second controller, etc. I've actually given some serious consideration to this as a true failsafe.

What will you use to switch over from #1 to #2 incase system #1 fails.....knock...egt....afr sensor?

Seems that a flow monitoring system like aquamist dds3 will sove the problem of a redundancy system..........no flow = no boost above ~12psi on stock wastegate

[EVO8LTW]

Originally Posted by moto17

What will you use to switch over from #1 to #2 incase system #1 fails.....knock...egt....afr sensor?

Seems that a flow monitoring system like aquamist dds3 will sove the problem of a redundancy system..........no flow = no boost above ~12psi on stock wastegate

You would run them both simultaneously and tune so that the motor will live (barely) on only 1 system. The problem with the regular failsafes is that they may not react fast enough, particularly with a fast spooling stockish turbo, and they may not address all potential issues. Plus, if you're running a high pressure actuator, wastegate pressure can still be 20+, which may not be low enough with aggressive timing.

[4G63>OOOO]

In this case, the best failsafe, in my opinion, is running race gas.

Unless you're going to go through the trouble of rigging up an entire fuel system with surge tanks, -10 teflon coated lines for methanol, twin SureFlo pumps, all of the above failsafes and a prayer, it's never going to be as safe as just pumping some lead in the gas tank.

I've run every kit out there, from a custom Aquamist to the SMC to the Sureflo based and I even went so far as to buy an ATL cell to put in the trunk, but ultimately, the money you spend isn't enough to ensure that something won't go wrong. All you need is one electrical contact to short, one pump to die, one solenoid to stick, one filter to clog, etc.

My opinion is that you should get a safe tune on pump gas and just add water injection on top for a margin of safety. To tune for alcohol when it's not a sure thing is an exercise in frustration, having been there and done that.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by 4G63>OOOO

In this case, the best failsafe, in my opinion, is running race gas.

Unless you're going to go through the trouble of rigging up an entire fuel system with surge tanks, -10 teflon coated lines for methanol, twin SureFlo pumps, all of the above failsafes and a prayer, it's never going to be as safe as just pumping some lead in the gas tank.

I've run every kit out there, from a custom Aquamist to the SMC to the Sureflo based and I even went so far as to buy an ATL cell to put in the trunk, but ultimately, the money you spend isn't enough to ensure that something won't go wrong. All you need is one electrical contact to short, one pump to die, one solenoid to stick, one filter to clog, etc.

My opinion is that you should get a safe tune on pump gas and just add water injection on top for a margin of safety. To tune for alcohol when it's not a sure thing is an exercise in frustration, having been there and done that.

I agree with you entirely, putting two separate fueling systems (gasoline and alcohol) is not an easy task. I suggested before having a single "dual fuel engine management system" may iron out some afr and timing matching problems.

You will probably found when using using the aquamist (2d system) to mirror the fuel map and deliver the mixture via a high speed valve almost like having a "duel fuel engine management system.

One other possibility is having two tanks, one with regular fuel and the other race fuel. The engine management will change fuel line at certain engine load. If the change over solenoid or fuel pump is faulty, the engine just dies without damage. The overall cost is small compare to have an second system that injects alcohol/ water only.

Using water as a safety measure is a lot simplier to manage. With the availability of the DDS3 flow sensing system, its 0-5V output can be used to trim fuel to gain a few horses with the benifit of some economy under WOT region. Most high end engine management system has a fuel/ignition trim map normally intended for road speed correction - if this can be coupled to the sensor's flow output...

[4G63>OOOO]

Yes, getting the 2D running right was only a pain once I got hooked on the methanol. The ability to make more power with that system was fun for a time...until I killed that pump. Then I got the SureFlo with and that was really good...until I killed that one, too. Then I got a SureFlo with Viton seals and that was good...until the relay took a vacation and so did a couple pistons.

I'm currently of the opinion that by the time you get a dual fuel car set up right, you've added so much wiring and sheer WEIGHT in fuel cells, fuel lines, harnesses, etc, and you're STILL taking a chance compared to the guy running next to you that just put some lead in his tank.

For just messing around on the street, I'd say a small shot of water is great for engine longevity...but don't go near that VP Racing M1 Methanol. The slope is slippery and the guy behind you is on his way down the bottom as well.

I do appreciate what you're doing, but before someone gets in it too deep, they should know how fragile such a system can be.

[TTP Engineering]

IMO there are always ways to circumvent any failsafes. I say, get a good reliable wideband with EGT reading and LCD display such as the zeitronix and keep an eye on the health of your system that way.

Widebands are almost an imperative component of any meth injection system.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by TTP Engineering

IMO there are always ways to circumvent any failsafes. I say, get a good reliable wideband with EGT reading and LCD display such as the zeitronix and keep an eye on the health of your system that way.

Widebands are almost an imperative component of any meth injection system.

I agree. and like to add: Wideband is essential to any tuning system including air filter change.

[C6C6CH3vo]

Does anyone know if the benifit of diluting the anhydrous methanol to 90, 85, or 80% in order to make it softer on kit parts/materials outweighs it's loss of net HP when compared to 100% MeOH.


I'm guessing that 80% and 95% methanol, respectfully, is equal to denatured for power and for destructive properties, but I don't know - I got C's throughout O-chem.

I'm thinking a little water in alcohol goes a long way for the systems reliability without much loss of bang.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by C6C6CH3vo

Does anyone know if the benifit of diluting the anhydrous methanol to 90, 85, or 80% in order to make it softer on kit parts/materials outweighs it's loss of net HP when compared to 100% MeOH.


I'm guessing that 80% and 95% methanol, respectfully, is equal to denatured for power and for destructive properties, but I don't know - I got C's throughout O-chem.

I'm thinking a little water in alcohol goes a long way for the systems reliability without much loss of bang.

I don't think it will make that much of difference between 80% anf 100% methanol unless your engine need that extra fuel. Putting 10% of water in methanol will bump up the cooling latent heat by en extra of 10%. In fact every % of water you add will increase the latent heat value by the same % level.

Richard

[SMC]

Hey Guys-
Sorry for the wait on the safeguard.......it's been a freakin zoo here. It looks like it will be a swap to the new v3.0 controller with safeguard built in. This makes for a much neater look than adding another box to graft into the old controller.
The 3.0 controller will have an extra dial to set the safeguard point. (for example 20 psi) If you reach 20 psi and the controller does not sense an alky pressure signal from the pump the safeguard will close a solenoid valve that will mount inline between the wastegate and boost controller. (factory or otherwise) When the valve closes the boost will drop to wastegate spring level. Sound good? Any input from you is appreciated. Will put it up on the website as soon as it is available....and after my main vendors have tested it. Thanks for your patience!
Hope to have prototype pictures up soon.......