Geoff Raicer

iTrader: (7)

This was a really interesting test for us - trying to prove if a larger non-BB turbo can outperform a smaller BB unit. Sean Ivey at Iveytune graciously lent us his dyno and tuning prowess, THANK YOU IVEYTUNE!!!

Long story short, we have a customer who purchased our T4 Twinscroll 35R kit for his almost entirely stock daily driver evo9.

pic of his car


The only other mods on the car are cams/springs/retainers clutch and fuel mgt. The owner daily drives it on 93octane pumpgas straight, and occasionally puts c16 race gas in it to turn the boost up and make 540+whp. While he loved the powerband and performance of the car, the 35R was not satisfying him 100%. his complaints were:

-the twinscroll gt35R spooled very fast, but at WOT in 5th gear and low rpms it would occasionally surge (and that is WITH the tial ported shroud housing)

-the powerband was great, but he wanted even quicker response and more midrange with more high boost potential for when he builds the motor next year. His cosworth M3 cams are lacking a little midrange, so anything we could do to get the lowend-midrange back was welcomed

-the extremely narrow gt35R center section sunken into a huge twinscroll housing makes getting to the water and oil lines very difficult as well as tightening the CHRA backing plate bolts can be tough.

-the low production qty twinscroll turbine housing casting is not as good quality as the other garrett gt castings and is a pain to get wrenches on

enter the BorgWarner/Airwerks S300SX 83-75 (basically their version of a twinscroll t4 35R with slightly larger turbine wheel and higher flowing compressor) This turbo has a 7 blade 60mm inducer that moves 68-69 lb/min (good to 45+ psi boost). The exducer is 83mm with the extended tip compressor design. (look at the comp maps to compare and you can see how well the extended tip works to deliver solid airflow at high boost levels) It uses a large 75mm 10 blade inconel turbine wheel (the 35R is only 68mm) in a 1.00 a/r housing modified to 3" vband. This turbo is NON-bb and non-watercooled only!

the results:

put the car on the dyno

the first dyno compares this stock 2.0L mitsubishi evo 9 on 93octane pump gas at 26psi boost. The S300SX 83-75 with 1.00 a/r TH (red line) vs the garrett gt3582R 1.06 a/r twinscroll t4 (blue line).






Its pretty amazing to see that despite having a 7mm larger turbine wheel and non-ball bearing CHRA, the bw spoolup almost mimics the garrett 35R. Also the bw has a slight bump in midrange tq and hp.

the 2nd dynograph shows the above car with race gas at 30psi (red line) vs the above plot of pump gas at 26psi (blue line)



The owner noted that on the street the BW feels noticeably better in and out of boost particulary the transients like between gearshifts. also now there is zero surge. it has better fitment, and is easier to work on than the ball bearing garrett center section. and best of all it sounds muuch cooler

These are non ball bearing turbos, but the development that goes into them is incredible. They have journal bearings designed to hold their speed at particular levels and offer ball bearing control and friction levels but with journal bearing durability and ease of repair. very very impressive.

As soon as this was done, we unstrapped the 35R 2.0L evo9 and sean got started tuning a customer's car. this one has a Buschur engine and our Twinscroll 4088R turbokit. Overlaying this graph on top of our 2.0L twinscroll BW testing really expemplified how well the increased displacement from 2.0 to 2.3 affects the powerband. this 3rd dyno shows the 2.3L Garrett GT40R turbo at 26psi on 93octane (GREEN LINE) vs the S300SX 83-75 with 1.00 a/r TH (red line) vs the garrett gt3582R 1.06 a/r twinscroll t4 (blue line).





the 4th dynoplot shows this same 2.3L mitsubishi evo8 with the garrett GT4088R at 26 psi on pump gas and 40psi on race gas. it made 694whp and 559tq but the injectors were running out of out fuel (only 1000cc inj) and the motor out of cam (only buschur 272s) so the run was aborted before we could make over 700. that will have to wait until next week. the car is another psycho fast street car with AC. Sean took it out todays cold weather and in 2nd gear it spun all 4 wheels instantly he had to get out of the throttle




Sean will swap in some 1200cc injectors, some tomei 280 cams + cam gears and then retune, but after that i am most excited to install the borgwarner 91-79 turbo (their version of a 40R).

last but not least here are a few pics of the turbos and the compressor maps overlayed for comparison sake




turbos from L to R -- TSGT40R, GT37R, BW S300SX 83-75, TS35R, BW S200SX 75-70, TS3076R














mods - please dont move this to a forum where no one reads it, this is really interesting stuff we worked hard on!

omniprobe

iTrader: (4)

The BW/Airwerks turbo has the Extended Tip technology correct?

supersal

iTrader: (1)

Great Work!

Thanks for taking the time...

.

NEUROEVO

geoff/sean:

awesome results. great spool up for both TS turbos and more impressive performance from the BW turbos. Keep the info coming. i am drooling to find out how the BW 91-79 turns out.

Geoff Raicer

iTrader: (7)

that is correct! ill put up a picture comparing an extended tip wheel to a more tradtional compressor wheel like GT style, its really interesting to see how different they are


believe me, we are verrry excited to see how this one does.. based off the maps and what we've seen from the other BW turbo it should raise the bar a bit and keep A/C.

glad you like it!

4DR

iTrader: (27)

I always wondered how long it would take before the evo community would start experimenting with Borg Warner's extended tip technology. If buschur/AMS/ETS/Full Race or any of the other top vendors don't endorse these things, no one tries it based on thier own research. I never saw anyone running thier s300 turbo kit. Here's a start, and it looks promising.

Good work Geoff!

Jasil

iTrader: (22)

Great test!!

staatz

iTrader: (12)

Hey look!..lol I can see my car next tot he dyno ..lol Nice test tho!

HeadGames

iTrader: (2)

good work Geoff and Sean! ALOT of work!lol Your texts the other day now make more sense..

is the non-ball bearing turbo's comparable in price? I know a lot of people will think they "need" the ball bearing, even though as you stated the obvious no power loss anywhere.

MR Turco

iTrader: (16)

i have been told by a designer at a small turbo company that journal bearing turbos can been just as good if not better then BB. I guess this proves it!

Geoff Raicer

iTrader: (7)

i was fortunate enough to visit the actual BorgWarner turbocharger facility last week, it is unreal. I wish they would have let me take pics so i can share the info on here, but its literally like ***** wonka's chocolate factory for turbos. i still cant believe the stuff i saw going on there.. billet ti comp wheels, cast ti turbine wheels robots everywhere, engineers that realllly know their stuff, its incredible.


After my returning from BWs headquarters, i would definitely agree with your contact! I think the key word here is that journal bearings CAN be as good if not better. The borg warner bearings are specially machined to control the speed of the bearing and the oil film, itis highly effective but not something commonly seen by most turbo companys. Also, a very high quality core-balance is very important!!

the non-ball bearing turbos are actually much less expensive. They are also way beefier with a huge shaft compared to the garrett. Its less expensive as a whole but i believe that you get more turbo for your $

I told the BW guys that same thing -- people think they NEED the ball bearings. BW said they would consider a possible future bb release to satisfy that crowd, but theyre not sure it would offer anything except higher price, and lower durability, not their style

i broke my cell phone, it doesnt work for calls anymore, only texts <waiting for the new blackberry tomorrow>

Im really interested to see what gains the headgames head will have on the 40R motor with the buschur head and block

which car is yours, the evo or supra?

Whoop_ass

iTrader: (7)

OMFG!!!
why was this thread MOVED Again...

I smell Bull**** honestly...
IF buschur or AMS post there results in turbo/drivetrain it stay put


Geoff and Sean, thanks for the massive effort you have put in, to bring us the results and sharing with EVO community.
Damn nice work and good results..

now slap on that B/W 40r equivalent and lets see the diff

ripnbst

Very interesting, its nice to see someone thinking outside the garrett box.

AutoMotoSports

iTrader: (42)

Awesome test!!!

Actually though we cannot post stuff like this in here anymore. Since they buckled down they are really trying to move posts into appropriate areas. I do agree this is a pretty thorough test and should be in a well seen area though.

Eric

dsmbruno

iTrader: (21)

Yes, I was there and saw the results. The 2.3 evo with the 40r spools really fast and it pulls hard. Total sleeper too bad it ran out of injectors. This is def. a 700whp+ moster. Next problem Traction...