Boost controllers and a new one coming from BR
Jun 21, 2007, 07:58 PM
#1
Boost controllers and a new one coming from BR
This is going to be long.....
First off, I have almost always used and been the largest promotor/fan of manual boost controllers. There is one electronic boost controller I have enjoyed and used over the years, that's the HKS EVC EZ. It was very simple, one knob, turn it up or down from inside the car and the boost went up and down. Very easy to use, worked very well. Other than that one, I can't stand them, I am too lazy to try and figure the rest of them out or read the instructions. I haven't found one that impressed me or outperformed a good manual controller.
With that said, some history. Back 15 years or so ago, the manual boost controllers that are on the market today did not exist. The controllers then were either straight through Devilbiss pain valves, aquarium valves or diaphram type paint/air regulator valves.
A guy came to me with an idea that incorporated a ball and a spring in a boost controller he made. It worked GREAT. I supported this guy and sold literally undreds of thousands of dollars worth of these. This guy and myself had an agreement I would be the sole retailer for these. This worked fine for years. Then one day I had a knife shoved into my back and our agreement was broken. By the time that happened everyone and their brother had copied this ball and spring style boost controller, all of these guys I bad mouthed, called scum and tried to support the innovator of that type of boost controller. These other guys who copied him drove the pricing down and made it hard for his better quality valve to sell. Anyway that's just some history. Today you can't hardly find a manual boost controller that doesn't use some type of ball and spring in it.
So, next I guess I will talk about my RS. I have tried numerous ways to control boost on the car. With the Green, 20g's, 35r etc. I find it a PITA to switch boost up and down when you change octane and such. I switched over to a dual stage boost controller on the car. Beautiful part, super nice design but on my particular car it doesn't work. Here is why. The low boost setting will not go low enough because of the design of the controller, lowest boost my car will run is 30 psi. Then on the high setting it will not run high enough, peaking at about 38 psi. So I have left it on the car because I spent a lot of time mounting it, hiding the wires, putting in a switch etc. It works well enough that on low boost the car ran a low 10 at 142 mph and on high ran 9.77 at 148 mph.
Next let's talk about the ball and spring boost controller again. The dual stage on my car, BTW, is also a ball and spring type. When I had this falling out with the originator of the ball and spring design I was not willing to "copy" him, but a good friend of mine was already making boost controllers and I simply called him and bought them from him. This is the BR manual boost controller we currently sell.
This brings me up to date with a lot of small details left out
Few months ago I see a magazine release for a new manual boost controller. It is very interesting in it's design and I was nuts for it. So I had Jarrod (our sales manager) call the company that was making them and place an order for one of these and another part I found interesting. My honest intentions were to get it, test it and then if I liked it buy them in quantity and re-sell them. We sell Turbo XS, Forge Boost controllers now, I don't copy them, we buy and resell them. I am not a guy that copies things, I like to come up with something on my own and if I don't I am more than happy to just buy/resell someone else's good parts.
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha
I have on my car now, the very first of these boost controllers and have built our first dual stage boost controller while I was at it.
The cost of doing this has not been nearly as cheap as I thought. The outcome though, atleast to me, is worth it. I will post pictures as soon as I snap one, possibly tomorrow.
The boost controller itself is made of CNC'd billet aluminum, it will be anodized in black with our logo and marks to keep track of the turns of adjustment. I have used a ceramic ball in it so it will never rust or stick. The spring is stainless steel and I have used a little different spring rate than any other boost controller I have personally scene. In the end, to be honest, we are all just knocking off the original guy that came up with this ball and spring controller. Too bad he decided his pocket was more important than a friendship and handshake.
The dual stage portion of this is quite simple on my car. I am using a very high quality solenoid (expensive) Since I am using a 21 psi wastegate spring and I want low boost to be about 21 psi, I am running straight from the boost source to the wastegate. This goes through the solenoid first. When switched to high boost the boost pressure is sent through a seperate portion of the solenoid and then through the new boost controller we built.
It has worked perfectly. With the wastegate hose directly to my wastegate I am seeing 23-24 psi. With the boost set on low and going through the solenoid I get 24 psi. On high boost I can now go as high as I want, hitting 40 is dead on and there is enough adjustment left to go higher than I would ever want to see.
Of course it can be turned down much lower on high too.
Now, don't be confused by these big boost numbers, these are just because of what I run for fuel and the boost levels I am looking for.
On a stock turbo'd EVO, setting it up just like I have it, low boost would be about 12 psi and high would be whatever you wanted it to be.
I have made a custom mount for all this that just quite simply kick butt. It is the cleanest and best thought out mount I have seen (if I do say so myself). The entire assembly mounts on the passenger side of the car to the two bolt holes that hold the a/c lines to the strut tower.
All this talk doesn't do it justice. I will get pictures up tomorrow.
Pricing..............not sure yet. The boost controller should be about the same as all the others, $75-95, that range. The dual stage will have a few options. Option one will be the selonoid and boost controller, option two will be the selonoid and two boost controllers. The reason for this is some guys will want to run a stock wastegate actuator at "20" psi on low and "30" psi on low. This will make both high and low adjustable. So the single adjustable will end up around $200 and then a dual adjustable will be around $300.
For example, the guys that would only need the solenoid and a single boost controller will be: someone who wants the low boost to lone his car out and run wastegate only pressure (11-12 psi), a guy who has a HD actuator on a Green or someone like myself with a 20 psi spring in his external gate.
Thanks for reading all this
First off, I have almost always used and been the largest promotor/fan of manual boost controllers. There is one electronic boost controller I have enjoyed and used over the years, that's the HKS EVC EZ. It was very simple, one knob, turn it up or down from inside the car and the boost went up and down. Very easy to use, worked very well. Other than that one, I can't stand them, I am too lazy to try and figure the rest of them out or read the instructions. I haven't found one that impressed me or outperformed a good manual controller.
With that said, some history. Back 15 years or so ago, the manual boost controllers that are on the market today did not exist. The controllers then were either straight through Devilbiss pain valves, aquarium valves or diaphram type paint/air regulator valves.
A guy came to me with an idea that incorporated a ball and a spring in a boost controller he made. It worked GREAT. I supported this guy and sold literally undreds of thousands of dollars worth of these. This guy and myself had an agreement I would be the sole retailer for these. This worked fine for years. Then one day I had a knife shoved into my back and our agreement was broken. By the time that happened everyone and their brother had copied this ball and spring style boost controller, all of these guys I bad mouthed, called scum and tried to support the innovator of that type of boost controller. These other guys who copied him drove the pricing down and made it hard for his better quality valve to sell. Anyway that's just some history. Today you can't hardly find a manual boost controller that doesn't use some type of ball and spring in it.
So, next I guess I will talk about my RS. I have tried numerous ways to control boost on the car. With the Green, 20g's, 35r etc. I find it a PITA to switch boost up and down when you change octane and such. I switched over to a dual stage boost controller on the car. Beautiful part, super nice design but on my particular car it doesn't work. Here is why. The low boost setting will not go low enough because of the design of the controller, lowest boost my car will run is 30 psi. Then on the high setting it will not run high enough, peaking at about 38 psi. So I have left it on the car because I spent a lot of time mounting it, hiding the wires, putting in a switch etc. It works well enough that on low boost the car ran a low 10 at 142 mph and on high ran 9.77 at 148 mph.
Next let's talk about the ball and spring boost controller again. The dual stage on my car, BTW, is also a ball and spring type. When I had this falling out with the originator of the ball and spring design I was not willing to "copy" him, but a good friend of mine was already making boost controllers and I simply called him and bought them from him. This is the BR manual boost controller we currently sell.
This brings me up to date with a lot of small details left out
Few months ago I see a magazine release for a new manual boost controller. It is very interesting in it's design and I was nuts for it. So I had Jarrod (our sales manager) call the company that was making them and place an order for one of these and another part I found interesting. My honest intentions were to get it, test it and then if I liked it buy them in quantity and re-sell them. We sell Turbo XS, Forge Boost controllers now, I don't copy them, we buy and resell them. I am not a guy that copies things, I like to come up with something on my own and if I don't I am more than happy to just buy/resell someone else's good parts.
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha
I have on my car now, the very first of these boost controllers and have built our first dual stage boost controller while I was at it.
The cost of doing this has not been nearly as cheap as I thought. The outcome though, atleast to me, is worth it. I will post pictures as soon as I snap one, possibly tomorrow.
The boost controller itself is made of CNC'd billet aluminum, it will be anodized in black with our logo and marks to keep track of the turns of adjustment. I have used a ceramic ball in it so it will never rust or stick. The spring is stainless steel and I have used a little different spring rate than any other boost controller I have personally scene. In the end, to be honest, we are all just knocking off the original guy that came up with this ball and spring controller. Too bad he decided his pocket was more important than a friendship and handshake.
The dual stage portion of this is quite simple on my car. I am using a very high quality solenoid (expensive) Since I am using a 21 psi wastegate spring and I want low boost to be about 21 psi, I am running straight from the boost source to the wastegate. This goes through the solenoid first. When switched to high boost the boost pressure is sent through a seperate portion of the solenoid and then through the new boost controller we built.
It has worked perfectly. With the wastegate hose directly to my wastegate I am seeing 23-24 psi. With the boost set on low and going through the solenoid I get 24 psi. On high boost I can now go as high as I want, hitting 40 is dead on and there is enough adjustment left to go higher than I would ever want to see.
Of course it can be turned down much lower on high too.
Now, don't be confused by these big boost numbers, these are just because of what I run for fuel and the boost levels I am looking for.
On a stock turbo'd EVO, setting it up just like I have it, low boost would be about 12 psi and high would be whatever you wanted it to be.
I have made a custom mount for all this that just quite simply kick butt. It is the cleanest and best thought out mount I have seen (if I do say so myself). The entire assembly mounts on the passenger side of the car to the two bolt holes that hold the a/c lines to the strut tower.
All this talk doesn't do it justice. I will get pictures up tomorrow.
Pricing..............not sure yet. The boost controller should be about the same as all the others, $75-95, that range. The dual stage will have a few options. Option one will be the selonoid and boost controller, option two will be the selonoid and two boost controllers. The reason for this is some guys will want to run a stock wastegate actuator at "20" psi on low and "30" psi on low. This will make both high and low adjustable. So the single adjustable will end up around $200 and then a dual adjustable will be around $300.
For example, the guys that would only need the solenoid and a single boost controller will be: someone who wants the low boost to lone his car out and run wastegate only pressure (11-12 psi), a guy who has a HD actuator on a Green or someone like myself with a 20 psi spring in his external gate.
Thanks for reading all this
Jun 21, 2007, 08:20 PM
#2
This post surprises me. I thought with a standalone car, like your personal car, that you really liked the AEM boost control and preferred it to an MBC. I haven't kept with all of your posts, but this thread really sticks out in my memory:
Better off just to read it.....
You didn't mention AEM boost control above. Have you now decided that it has some downside vs. a manual controller?
Better off just to read it.....
You didn't mention AEM boost control above. Have you now decided that it has some downside vs. a manual controller?
Jun 21, 2007, 08:37 PM
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This post surprises me. I thought with a standalone car, like your personal car, that you really liked the AEM boost control and preferred it to an MBC. I haven't kept with all of your posts, but this thread really sticks out in my memory:
Better off just to read it.....
You didn't mention AEM boost control above. Have you now decided that it has some downside vs. a manual controller?
Better off just to read it.....
You didn't mention AEM boost control above. Have you now decided that it has some downside vs. a manual controller?
Jun 21, 2007, 08:51 PM
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"Few months ago I see a magazine release for a new manual boost controller. It is very interesting in it's design and I was nuts for it. So I had Jarrod (our sales manager) call the company that was making them and place an order for one of these and another part I found interesting. My honest intentions were to get it, test it and then if I liked it buy them in quantity and re-sell them. We sell Turbo XS, Forge Boost controllers now, I don't copy them, we buy and resell them. I am not a guy that copies things, I like to come up with something on my own and if I don't I am more than happy to just buy/resell someone else's good parts.
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha"
__________________________________________________ _________
Hi Dave & Jarrod, sorry to have caused such a fuss. I'll have to check my email history when I get back into the office, but I think I asked you guys to give me a call to discuss this further if you wished. I did not get a call and I also failed to follow up, my bad. The idea of you selling our products was still on the table we just don't instantly jump into business with competing companies.
We have a shaky track record with companies lifting some of our designs and ideas. Actually very soon you will be seeing a short shifter from a "company" called Craven Speed that looks and works just like ours. They used to be a machine shop that made a few of our early parts, now they **pretend** to be a performance company when in fact the ownership probably cant even to drive a manual transmition vehicle!(haha sorry off topic)
Many things get lost in day to day business and I hope your new design works well for you, seems interesting.
We don't get out east much but will you guys be at the tuner shoot out in Las Vegas in Sept.?
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha"
__________________________________________________ _________
Hi Dave & Jarrod, sorry to have caused such a fuss. I'll have to check my email history when I get back into the office, but I think I asked you guys to give me a call to discuss this further if you wished. I did not get a call and I also failed to follow up, my bad. The idea of you selling our products was still on the table we just don't instantly jump into business with competing companies.
We have a shaky track record with companies lifting some of our designs and ideas. Actually very soon you will be seeing a short shifter from a "company" called Craven Speed that looks and works just like ours. They used to be a machine shop that made a few of our early parts, now they **pretend** to be a performance company when in fact the ownership probably cant even to drive a manual transmition vehicle!(haha sorry off topic)
Many things get lost in day to day business and I hope your new design works well for you, seems interesting.
We don't get out east much but will you guys be at the tuner shoot out in Las Vegas in Sept.?
Last edited by PERRIN_JOHN; Jun 21, 2007 at 09:03 PM.
Jun 22, 2007, 12:32 AM
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I think it is a great idea for people running different type of gas, etc.
Suggested pricing is fine - for all but the tripple adjustable boost control, which seems a bit steep - I got an Apexi AVC-R fitted for $300. Gear/rpm based boost/duty cycle adjustment, tripple solenoids, two preset settings + off setting that will run off the wastegate. I dont even have to pop open the hood
Suggested pricing is fine - for all but the tripple adjustable boost control, which seems a bit steep - I got an Apexi AVC-R fitted for $300. Gear/rpm based boost/duty cycle adjustment, tripple solenoids, two preset settings + off setting that will run off the wastegate. I dont even have to pop open the hood
Jun 22, 2007, 02:56 AM
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"Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it."
so you're okay with people copying products you design?
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it."
so you're okay with people copying products you design?
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Jun 22, 2007, 06:54 AM
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Wow, busted in 53 minutes by the original manufacturer... Is Perrin secretly run by a record company?
Personally I find this a little sad, and I think I'll start doing business with other shops. After reading Dave Buschur's rants on chinese outfits copying designs and ripping him and AMS off I find it hypocritical that he then turns around and does it to someone else, and is brazen enough to come out and admit it.
Well, there goes my FP 20g Lt conversion I was building up to.
AMS just got another customer though.
Personally I find this a little sad, and I think I'll start doing business with other shops. After reading Dave Buschur's rants on chinese outfits copying designs and ripping him and AMS off I find it hypocritical that he then turns around and does it to someone else, and is brazen enough to come out and admit it.
Well, there goes my FP 20g Lt conversion I was building up to.
AMS just got another customer though.
Jun 22, 2007, 06:56 AM
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This is going to be long.....
First off, I have almost always used and been the largest promotor/fan of manual boost controllers. There is one electronic boost controller I have enjoyed and used over the years, that's the HKS EVC EZ. It was very simple, one knob, turn it up or down from inside the car and the boost went up and down. Very easy to use, worked very well. Other than that one, I can't stand them, I am too lazy to try and figure the rest of them out or read the instructions. I haven't found one that impressed me or outperformed a good manual controller.
With that said, some history. Back 15 years or so ago, the manual boost controllers that are on the market today did not exist. The controllers then were either straight through Devilbiss pain valves, aquarium valves or diaphram type paint/air regulator valves.
A guy came to me with an idea that incorporated a ball and a spring in a boost controller he made. It worked GREAT. I supported this guy and sold literally undreds of thousands of dollars worth of these. This guy and myself had an agreement I would be the sole retailer for these. This worked fine for years. Then one day I had a knife shoved into my back and our agreement was broken. By the time that happened everyone and their brother had copied this ball and spring style boost controller, all of these guys I bad mouthed, called scum and tried to support the innovator of that type of boost controller. These other guys who copied him drove the pricing down and made it hard for his better quality valve to sell. Anyway that's just some history. Today you can't hardly find a manual boost controller that doesn't use some type of ball and spring in it.
So, next I guess I will talk about my RS. I have tried numerous ways to control boost on the car. With the Green, 20g's, 35r etc. I find it a PITA to switch boost up and down when you change octane and such. I switched over to a dual stage boost controller on the car. Beautiful part, super nice design but on my particular car it doesn't work. Here is why. The low boost setting will not go low enough because of the design of the controller, lowest boost my car will run is 30 psi. Then on the high setting it will not run high enough, peaking at about 38 psi. So I have left it on the car because I spent a lot of time mounting it, hiding the wires, putting in a switch etc. It works well enough that on low boost the car ran a low 10 at 142 mph and on high ran 9.77 at 148 mph.
Next let's talk about the ball and spring boost controller again. The dual stage on my car, BTW, is also a ball and spring type. When I had this falling out with the originator of the ball and spring design I was not willing to "copy" him, but a good friend of mine was already making boost controllers and I simply called him and bought them from him. This is the BR manual boost controller we currently sell.
This brings me up to date with a lot of small details left out
Few months ago I see a magazine release for a new manual boost controller. It is very interesting in it's design and I was nuts for it. So I had Jarrod (our sales manager) call the company that was making them and place an order for one of these and another part I found interesting. My honest intentions were to get it, test it and then if I liked it buy them in quantity and re-sell them. We sell Turbo XS, Forge Boost controllers now, I don't copy them, we buy and resell them. I am not a guy that copies things, I like to come up with something on my own and if I don't I am more than happy to just buy/resell someone else's good parts.
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha
I have on my car now, the very first of these boost controllers and have built our first dual stage boost controller while I was at it.
The cost of doing this has not been nearly as cheap as I thought. The outcome though, atleast to me, is worth it. I will post pictures as soon as I snap one, possibly tomorrow.
The boost controller itself is made of CNC'd billet aluminum, it will be anodized in black with our logo and marks to keep track of the turns of adjustment. I have used a ceramic ball in it so it will never rust or stick. The spring is stainless steel and I have used a little different spring rate than any other boost controller I have personally scene. In the end, to be honest, we are all just knocking off the original guy that came up with this ball and spring controller. Too bad he decided his pocket was more important than a friendship and handshake.
The dual stage portion of this is quite simple on my car. I am using a very high quality solenoid (expensive) Since I am using a 21 psi wastegate spring and I want low boost to be about 21 psi, I am running straight from the boost source to the wastegate. This goes through the solenoid first. When switched to high boost the boost pressure is sent through a seperate portion of the solenoid and then through the new boost controller we built.
It has worked perfectly. With the wastegate hose directly to my wastegate I am seeing 23-24 psi. With the boost set on low and going through the solenoid I get 24 psi. On high boost I can now go as high as I want, hitting 40 is dead on and there is enough adjustment left to go higher than I would ever want to see.
Of course it can be turned down much lower on high too.
Now, don't be confused by these big boost numbers, these are just because of what I run for fuel and the boost levels I am looking for.
On a stock turbo'd EVO, setting it up just like I have it, low boost would be about 12 psi and high would be whatever you wanted it to be.
I have made a custom mount for all this that just quite simply kick butt. It is the cleanest and best thought out mount I have seen (if I do say so myself). The entire assembly mounts on the passenger side of the car to the two bolt holes that hold the a/c lines to the strut tower.
All this talk doesn't do it justice. I will get pictures up tomorrow.
Pricing..............not sure yet. The boost controller should be about the same as all the others, $75-95, that range. The dual stage will have a few options. Option one will be the selonoid and boost controller, option two will be the selonoid and two boost controllers. The reason for this is some guys will want to run a stock wastegate actuator at "20" psi on low and "30" psi on low. This will make both high and low adjustable. So the single adjustable will end up around $200 and then a dual adjustable will be around $300.
For example, the guys that would only need the solenoid and a single boost controller will be: someone who wants the low boost to lone his car out and run wastegate only pressure (11-12 psi), a guy who has a HD actuator on a Green or someone like myself with a 20 psi spring in his external gate.
Thanks for reading all this
First off, I have almost always used and been the largest promotor/fan of manual boost controllers. There is one electronic boost controller I have enjoyed and used over the years, that's the HKS EVC EZ. It was very simple, one knob, turn it up or down from inside the car and the boost went up and down. Very easy to use, worked very well. Other than that one, I can't stand them, I am too lazy to try and figure the rest of them out or read the instructions. I haven't found one that impressed me or outperformed a good manual controller.
With that said, some history. Back 15 years or so ago, the manual boost controllers that are on the market today did not exist. The controllers then were either straight through Devilbiss pain valves, aquarium valves or diaphram type paint/air regulator valves.
A guy came to me with an idea that incorporated a ball and a spring in a boost controller he made. It worked GREAT. I supported this guy and sold literally undreds of thousands of dollars worth of these. This guy and myself had an agreement I would be the sole retailer for these. This worked fine for years. Then one day I had a knife shoved into my back and our agreement was broken. By the time that happened everyone and their brother had copied this ball and spring style boost controller, all of these guys I bad mouthed, called scum and tried to support the innovator of that type of boost controller. These other guys who copied him drove the pricing down and made it hard for his better quality valve to sell. Anyway that's just some history. Today you can't hardly find a manual boost controller that doesn't use some type of ball and spring in it.
So, next I guess I will talk about my RS. I have tried numerous ways to control boost on the car. With the Green, 20g's, 35r etc. I find it a PITA to switch boost up and down when you change octane and such. I switched over to a dual stage boost controller on the car. Beautiful part, super nice design but on my particular car it doesn't work. Here is why. The low boost setting will not go low enough because of the design of the controller, lowest boost my car will run is 30 psi. Then on the high setting it will not run high enough, peaking at about 38 psi. So I have left it on the car because I spent a lot of time mounting it, hiding the wires, putting in a switch etc. It works well enough that on low boost the car ran a low 10 at 142 mph and on high ran 9.77 at 148 mph.
Next let's talk about the ball and spring boost controller again. The dual stage on my car, BTW, is also a ball and spring type. When I had this falling out with the originator of the ball and spring design I was not willing to "copy" him, but a good friend of mine was already making boost controllers and I simply called him and bought them from him. This is the BR manual boost controller we currently sell.
This brings me up to date with a lot of small details left out
Few months ago I see a magazine release for a new manual boost controller. It is very interesting in it's design and I was nuts for it. So I had Jarrod (our sales manager) call the company that was making them and place an order for one of these and another part I found interesting. My honest intentions were to get it, test it and then if I liked it buy them in quantity and re-sell them. We sell Turbo XS, Forge Boost controllers now, I don't copy them, we buy and resell them. I am not a guy that copies things, I like to come up with something on my own and if I don't I am more than happy to just buy/resell someone else's good parts.
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it. I have changed some things about it to make it look better and work better though. The idea, whoever came up with it initially, thank you, great idea.
The boost controller I have already now seen 2 other companies that have copied it and put new product releases in magazines, it's hilarious. Maybe these other two companies were told "NO" too. haha
I have on my car now, the very first of these boost controllers and have built our first dual stage boost controller while I was at it.
The cost of doing this has not been nearly as cheap as I thought. The outcome though, atleast to me, is worth it. I will post pictures as soon as I snap one, possibly tomorrow.
The boost controller itself is made of CNC'd billet aluminum, it will be anodized in black with our logo and marks to keep track of the turns of adjustment. I have used a ceramic ball in it so it will never rust or stick. The spring is stainless steel and I have used a little different spring rate than any other boost controller I have personally scene. In the end, to be honest, we are all just knocking off the original guy that came up with this ball and spring controller. Too bad he decided his pocket was more important than a friendship and handshake.
The dual stage portion of this is quite simple on my car. I am using a very high quality solenoid (expensive) Since I am using a 21 psi wastegate spring and I want low boost to be about 21 psi, I am running straight from the boost source to the wastegate. This goes through the solenoid first. When switched to high boost the boost pressure is sent through a seperate portion of the solenoid and then through the new boost controller we built.
It has worked perfectly. With the wastegate hose directly to my wastegate I am seeing 23-24 psi. With the boost set on low and going through the solenoid I get 24 psi. On high boost I can now go as high as I want, hitting 40 is dead on and there is enough adjustment left to go higher than I would ever want to see.
Of course it can be turned down much lower on high too.
Now, don't be confused by these big boost numbers, these are just because of what I run for fuel and the boost levels I am looking for.
On a stock turbo'd EVO, setting it up just like I have it, low boost would be about 12 psi and high would be whatever you wanted it to be.
I have made a custom mount for all this that just quite simply kick butt. It is the cleanest and best thought out mount I have seen (if I do say so myself). The entire assembly mounts on the passenger side of the car to the two bolt holes that hold the a/c lines to the strut tower.
All this talk doesn't do it justice. I will get pictures up tomorrow.
Pricing..............not sure yet. The boost controller should be about the same as all the others, $75-95, that range. The dual stage will have a few options. Option one will be the selonoid and boost controller, option two will be the selonoid and two boost controllers. The reason for this is some guys will want to run a stock wastegate actuator at "20" psi on low and "30" psi on low. This will make both high and low adjustable. So the single adjustable will end up around $200 and then a dual adjustable will be around $300.
For example, the guys that would only need the solenoid and a single boost controller will be: someone who wants the low boost to lone his car out and run wastegate only pressure (11-12 psi), a guy who has a HD actuator on a Green or someone like myself with a 20 psi spring in his external gate.
Thanks for reading all this
Jun 22, 2007, 06:57 AM
#10
"Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it." In 18 years of being in business I have never had a company refuse to sell to me, I was pissed off.
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it."
so you're okay with people copying products you design?
So, we did buy one secretly and yes sir, I kept my word, disected it and copied it."
so you're okay with people copying products you design?
Hahah I knew that question was coming. I dont think he is ok with someone copying his design though, I dont think any company should be unless they get profit off the item.
Jun 22, 2007, 08:00 AM
#12
It's very interesting to me how so many of you guys read only the details you wish to read. First off every single company currently using a ball and spring boost control (which is just about everyone) could be accused of copying the guy that originally came up with the idea.
I am not OK with people copying my ideas but since it has been happening non stop of 18 years now I have grown use to it. Unlike people who do it to us I did attempt to buy directly from Perrin first. As a matter of fact, Perrin for some reason SENT US a catalog in the mail. That's where I saw it, we did not request or order the catalog, it just came. That's what really got me, I simply wanted to place an order from a catalog that was sent.
BTW, John@ Perrin, there is no e-mail from all this, my sales Manager, Jarrod, called you guys directly to order. The order was placed and then someone from your company called us back 2-3 days later and said they would not sell to us as we were in a competing business. Sorry it had to take place like this as I would have been happier just to buy them. Jarrod told your sales guy that if we couldn't buy them, we'd copy it.
Also, for you guys that only read and comprehend what you choose. This, to me atleast, is not a case of just blatantly copying someone else's work. I tried to buy them and resell them. If that's not possible then I guess copying a product is OK.
I didn't see the Ebay Chinese companies calling up AMS and asking if they could buy and resell their intercoolers first, they copied it.
COMPLETELY different scenario's, completely.
As for the AEM boost controller. On the dyno, back when I made that post, it worked awesome. On the street, on the track, it flat out sucked. I lost track of that topic or I would have gone back in and said I didn't like it. I know AMS had problems using the GM solenoid and the AEM on the track too. I had no desire after that to try something else with the AEM. A manual is just too easy and works to well for the hassles related to all the others.
Also, John @ Perrin, we will not be attending that race. Nobody there asks us to contact you guys about this further BUT, I know a mutual friend of ours spoke to someone there last week about it, Tim B., he then called me and said that you guys would be willing to sell them to us now, but I already had the finished product in my hand.............I am sure you've seen the other companies that have released knock off's of your boost controller too? Atleast we tried to buy them and resell them. Hope you also see it that way.
s2kguy, read the entire story before you judge as you are only reading the parts you want to judge me on. If you still want to call AMS, I'll give you their number
I am not OK with people copying my ideas but since it has been happening non stop of 18 years now I have grown use to it. Unlike people who do it to us I did attempt to buy directly from Perrin first. As a matter of fact, Perrin for some reason SENT US a catalog in the mail. That's where I saw it, we did not request or order the catalog, it just came. That's what really got me, I simply wanted to place an order from a catalog that was sent.
BTW, John@ Perrin, there is no e-mail from all this, my sales Manager, Jarrod, called you guys directly to order. The order was placed and then someone from your company called us back 2-3 days later and said they would not sell to us as we were in a competing business. Sorry it had to take place like this as I would have been happier just to buy them. Jarrod told your sales guy that if we couldn't buy them, we'd copy it.
Also, for you guys that only read and comprehend what you choose. This, to me atleast, is not a case of just blatantly copying someone else's work. I tried to buy them and resell them. If that's not possible then I guess copying a product is OK.
I didn't see the Ebay Chinese companies calling up AMS and asking if they could buy and resell their intercoolers first, they copied it.
COMPLETELY different scenario's, completely.
As for the AEM boost controller. On the dyno, back when I made that post, it worked awesome. On the street, on the track, it flat out sucked. I lost track of that topic or I would have gone back in and said I didn't like it. I know AMS had problems using the GM solenoid and the AEM on the track too. I had no desire after that to try something else with the AEM. A manual is just too easy and works to well for the hassles related to all the others.
Also, John @ Perrin, we will not be attending that race. Nobody there asks us to contact you guys about this further BUT, I know a mutual friend of ours spoke to someone there last week about it, Tim B., he then called me and said that you guys would be willing to sell them to us now, but I already had the finished product in my hand.............I am sure you've seen the other companies that have released knock off's of your boost controller too? Atleast we tried to buy them and resell them. Hope you also see it that way.
s2kguy, read the entire story before you judge as you are only reading the parts you want to judge me on. If you still want to call AMS, I'll give you their number
Jun 22, 2007, 08:11 AM
#14
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Sorry Dave,
I just looked it up, there was an email (see below)
Jarrod,
After reviewing your account application and the type of business you have we are declining the account. The main reason is your company manufactures parts that are considered competing parts with our product line.
By no means is this an indication of bad feelings between our companies, the decision is based on company policies.
Please call me to discuss this matter or if you have any questions.
Thank you,
John Leitl
Sales Manager
Perrin Performance
www.perrinperformance.com
503-643-4677
503-644-9857 fax
I just looked it up, there was an email (see below)
Jarrod,
After reviewing your account application and the type of business you have we are declining the account. The main reason is your company manufactures parts that are considered competing parts with our product line.
By no means is this an indication of bad feelings between our companies, the decision is based on company policies.
Please call me to discuss this matter or if you have any questions.
Thank you,
John Leitl
Sales Manager
Perrin Performance
www.perrinperformance.com
503-643-4677
503-644-9857 fax
Jun 22, 2007, 08:26 AM
#15
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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It's very interesting to me how so many of you guys read only the details you wish to read. First off every single company currently using a ball and spring boost control (which is just about everyone) could be accused of copying the guy that originally came up with the idea.
I am not OK with people copying my ideas but since it has been happening non stop of 18 years now I have grown use to it. Unlike people who do it to us I did attempt to buy directly from Perrin first. As a matter of fact, Perrin for some reason SENT US a catalog in the mail. That's where I saw it, we did not request or order the catalog, it just came. That's what really got me, I simply wanted to place an order from a catalog that was sent.
BTW, John@ Perrin, there is no e-mail from all this, my sales Manager, Jarrod, called you guys directly to order. The order was placed and then someone from your company called us back 2-3 days later and said they would not sell to us as we were in a competing business. Sorry it had to take place like this as I would have been happier just to buy them. Jarrod told your sales guy that if we couldn't buy them, we'd copy it.
Also, for you guys that only read and comprehend what you choose. This, to me atleast, is not a case of just blatantly copying someone else's work. I tried to buy them and resell them. If that's not possible then I guess copying a product is OK.
I didn't see the Ebay Chinese companies calling up AMS and asking if they could buy and resell their intercoolers first, they copied it.
COMPLETELY different scenario's, completely.
As for the AEM boost controller. On the dyno, back when I made that post, it worked awesome. On the street, on the track, it flat out sucked. I lost track of that topic or I would have gone back in and said I didn't like it. I know AMS had problems using the GM solenoid and the AEM on the track too. I had no desire after that to try something else with the AEM. A manual is just too easy and works to well for the hassles related to all the others.
Also, John @ Perrin, we will not be attending that race. Nobody there asks us to contact you guys about this further BUT, I know a mutual friend of ours spoke to someone there last week about it, Tim B., he then called me and said that you guys would be willing to sell them to us now, but I already had the finished product in my hand.............I am sure you've seen the other companies that have released knock off's of your boost controller too? Atleast we tried to buy them and resell them. Hope you also see it that way.
s2kguy, read the entire story before you judge as you are only reading the parts you want to judge me on. If you still want to call AMS, I'll give you their number
I am not OK with people copying my ideas but since it has been happening non stop of 18 years now I have grown use to it. Unlike people who do it to us I did attempt to buy directly from Perrin first. As a matter of fact, Perrin for some reason SENT US a catalog in the mail. That's where I saw it, we did not request or order the catalog, it just came. That's what really got me, I simply wanted to place an order from a catalog that was sent.
BTW, John@ Perrin, there is no e-mail from all this, my sales Manager, Jarrod, called you guys directly to order. The order was placed and then someone from your company called us back 2-3 days later and said they would not sell to us as we were in a competing business. Sorry it had to take place like this as I would have been happier just to buy them. Jarrod told your sales guy that if we couldn't buy them, we'd copy it.
Also, for you guys that only read and comprehend what you choose. This, to me atleast, is not a case of just blatantly copying someone else's work. I tried to buy them and resell them. If that's not possible then I guess copying a product is OK.
I didn't see the Ebay Chinese companies calling up AMS and asking if they could buy and resell their intercoolers first, they copied it.
COMPLETELY different scenario's, completely.
As for the AEM boost controller. On the dyno, back when I made that post, it worked awesome. On the street, on the track, it flat out sucked. I lost track of that topic or I would have gone back in and said I didn't like it. I know AMS had problems using the GM solenoid and the AEM on the track too. I had no desire after that to try something else with the AEM. A manual is just too easy and works to well for the hassles related to all the others.
Also, John @ Perrin, we will not be attending that race. Nobody there asks us to contact you guys about this further BUT, I know a mutual friend of ours spoke to someone there last week about it, Tim B., he then called me and said that you guys would be willing to sell them to us now, but I already had the finished product in my hand.............I am sure you've seen the other companies that have released knock off's of your boost controller too? Atleast we tried to buy them and resell them. Hope you also see it that way.
s2kguy, read the entire story before you judge as you are only reading the parts you want to judge me on. If you still want to call AMS, I'll give you their number
Personally I don't give a damn about Perrin or someone copying their products. But just because you attempted to work something out to resale their products first doesn't make it right to steal it because they said no.
No matter how you twist it, no matter how you justify it, you are now no better than the chinese ripoff artists. I really can't believe you're trying to justify stealing someone else's product with
Well this particular company told Jarrod, "We will not sell to you because you guys are in a competing business." I was pretty shocked by this and told Jarrod to tell this company, "No problem we will buy one and then copy it."
If they HAD asked first, and you said no, would YOU then be O.K. with it? I seriously doubt it.
I honestly could care less under most circumstances, except you've made it quite clear how you feel about people stealing your designs.
BTW, I have AMS's phone number already. Thanks for the offer though.
Last edited by s2kguy; Jun 22, 2007 at 08:32 AM.