lets have a lil discussion about a roll cage
Apr 28, 2007, 04:58 PM
#1
lets have a lil discussion about a roll cage
I was on the speed lounge and this was brought up. It has been quite the lil conversation on here and on sclc so I figured I would post up this guys thoughts. It was in sport compact car. This isnt even talking about harness bars being dangerous. This is talking about a physical cage.
Theres a big misconception about harness bars, roll bars and cages in general so lets have a good discussion about it. Not only opinions but please do some research and find info to back your statements. If some mods could try to keep this clean please. (other threads about thia have gotten nasty).
This came out of Sport Compact Car.
Myth #10: Roll cages make your street car safer.
The Truth:This statement is only true if you are in a collision while wearing a helment. In reality, welding or bolting in a multi-point cage is one of the most dangerous things you can do to your street car. Even if scrpulously designed and wickedly fabricated, cages are meant for race cars and drivers wearing helments. Sure, a cage can dramatically improve chassis ridgity, but this huge increase also means that energy that was supposed to be absorbed by crumble zones can now be directly transmitted to your body. In a high-impact collision, that sweet 4130 chromoly tubing can crack open your unprotected head like a watermelon.
Cages also negatively impact many of the existing safety features found in newer cars(not 240s lol). Passive saftey restraints such as seat belts and active systems such as airbags are designed to work within a fixed amount of space and cannot account for the cabin intrusion of a saftey cage. In fact, in newer cars, cage tubing can prevent the deployment of certain side and side curtain airbag systems. And we haven't even mentioned the injury potential of poorly designed cages of suspect strengthe and geometry.
The Fix:
Padding a rollcage can lessen the potential for injury, but unless you are willing to wear a helment and 5-point harness to the grocery store, you're better off without one in your street car. -EL
Theres a big misconception about harness bars, roll bars and cages in general so lets have a good discussion about it. Not only opinions but please do some research and find info to back your statements. If some mods could try to keep this clean please. (other threads about thia have gotten nasty).
This came out of Sport Compact Car.
Myth #10: Roll cages make your street car safer.
The Truth:This statement is only true if you are in a collision while wearing a helment. In reality, welding or bolting in a multi-point cage is one of the most dangerous things you can do to your street car. Even if scrpulously designed and wickedly fabricated, cages are meant for race cars and drivers wearing helments. Sure, a cage can dramatically improve chassis ridgity, but this huge increase also means that energy that was supposed to be absorbed by crumble zones can now be directly transmitted to your body. In a high-impact collision, that sweet 4130 chromoly tubing can crack open your unprotected head like a watermelon.
Cages also negatively impact many of the existing safety features found in newer cars(not 240s lol). Passive saftey restraints such as seat belts and active systems such as airbags are designed to work within a fixed amount of space and cannot account for the cabin intrusion of a saftey cage. In fact, in newer cars, cage tubing can prevent the deployment of certain side and side curtain airbag systems. And we haven't even mentioned the injury potential of poorly designed cages of suspect strengthe and geometry.
The Fix:
Padding a rollcage can lessen the potential for injury, but unless you are willing to wear a helment and 5-point harness to the grocery store, you're better off without one in your street car. -EL
Apr 28, 2007, 05:04 PM
#3
Thanks. Another Lancer member (CadiLuva) has posted in the thread on the speed lounge so mabey he will chime in as well with his thoughts.
"
On an impact like that, do you think a roll cage would have hurt or helped the driver?
I would say a roll cage would have HURT the driver. The car crumpled and took a lot of the impact. If it had a cage, the impact would have been a lot harder and the driver would be injured more seriously.
Nascar cars have roll cages, but then again there's also a lot more safety equipment - Hans devices, safety seats, etc." posted by krdshrk on TSL.
I agree with his post completely.
"
On an impact like that, do you think a roll cage would have hurt or helped the driver?
I would say a roll cage would have HURT the driver. The car crumpled and took a lot of the impact. If it had a cage, the impact would have been a lot harder and the driver would be injured more seriously.
Nascar cars have roll cages, but then again there's also a lot more safety equipment - Hans devices, safety seats, etc." posted by krdshrk on TSL.
I agree with his post completely.
Last edited by mitsuozboi; Apr 28, 2007 at 05:06 PM.
Apr 28, 2007, 05:17 PM
#6
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I think that a cage can add some side intrusion protection which your standard car cannot provide. I do, however, believe that having a full cage in a street car that is not designed for it can actually make things more dangerous. This is especially true if your unprotected head manages to make contact with it. This is also not to mention that it would interfere with any passive restraint systems that would have been removed from a race car.
Conclusion -- bad idea unless specifically designed to work with the car.
Sorry for lack of proof -- I am really curious to see what people come up with
Conclusion -- bad idea unless specifically designed to work with the car.
Sorry for lack of proof -- I am really curious to see what people come up with
Last edited by JTB; Apr 28, 2007 at 05:20 PM.
Apr 28, 2007, 05:24 PM
#7
Roll bars (4 point , every bar behind the driver) [6 point , same as 4 , but with a bar that goes from shoulder level to the feet] can be acceptable depending on your seating postion and how secure your seat and seat belts are . I think it's pretty common knowledge that evos ( lancers as well ) are NOT the safest car in a side impact . A roll bar very well might help that oversight by Mitsubishi . I agree that any roll cage in a street car is a skull fracture just waiting to happen . I had a 6 point bar in my mirage turbo for years , but was never concerned for my personal safety . Any metal tube within 10" of your melon is a problem . Just my .02 !
Last edited by cabvolt@comcast; Apr 28, 2007 at 05:27 PM. Reason: added info
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Apr 28, 2007, 05:44 PM
#9
I think this is a pointless debate. It will very on each type of collision, there are way to many variables to take into account. If you got into a minor collision and bumped your head, maybe a concussion. Then you would say man if I didnt have that cage I'd be ok. Then on another instance lets say you slide off a road into a a large ditch. Rolling your car several times and come out unharmed. What would you say, yay or nay to a cage. I feel that for a daily driven automobile that never sees any high speed runs, or any track events that the stock restraints in most newer cars are more that suffecient. On the other hand there are soooo many guys running rediculous sp* speeds in their cars at which point it just depends on the crash that would determine what is good or bad.
Apr 28, 2007, 05:47 PM
#10
I dont think its completely pointless but yes, it does depend a lot on the kind of driving that is going on. That decides wether a cage is needed/helpful or not.
roll bars or cages are the right thing for certain people so having a thread about it can at least allow people to have information so they can decide if its right for them.
roll bars or cages are the right thing for certain people so having a thread about it can at least allow people to have information so they can decide if its right for them.
Last edited by mitsuozboi; Apr 28, 2007 at 05:52 PM.
Apr 28, 2007, 05:52 PM
#11
I agree with the info from SCC. A roll cage is not meant for a street car in any capacity. The bars are a risk, even with a helmet on the chance of a concussion is pretty high and without a helmet brain damage would be an almost certainty. This is why I don't like the current trend of people putting a cage in a car purely for the "racer" look. By doing so you put any occupants at risk.
A roll bar on the other hand is acceptable. The back seats become useless but the chance of hitting your head is pretty slim. I'd still put padding on if it was in my car but thats more for when I'm getting stuff out of the back.
The thing with safety equipment is it's very hard to find an acceptable middle group. You either do nothing or you do everything. If you use harnesses and fixed-back seats on the street, you need a roll bar and you need to deactivate the airbags. If you have a cage, you can't drive the car on the street and if you do, you need to wear a helmet. Personally the setup I'd be happy with is the evo recaros with harnesses for auto-x use only and a roll bar for that extra bit of protection.
A roll bar on the other hand is acceptable. The back seats become useless but the chance of hitting your head is pretty slim. I'd still put padding on if it was in my car but thats more for when I'm getting stuff out of the back.
The thing with safety equipment is it's very hard to find an acceptable middle group. You either do nothing or you do everything. If you use harnesses and fixed-back seats on the street, you need a roll bar and you need to deactivate the airbags. If you have a cage, you can't drive the car on the street and if you do, you need to wear a helmet. Personally the setup I'd be happy with is the evo recaros with harnesses for auto-x use only and a roll bar for that extra bit of protection.
Apr 29, 2007, 06:52 AM
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sorry for not jumping in earlier.. i hadnt seen this thread.. but yea.. i agree with the transfer of impact from the body of the car, which is designed to take impact, to the body of the driver.. in that pic of the tc imagine if the rigidity of the roll cage would have transfered the impact to your guts in your body.. shyt it could have broken the drivers neck..
Apr 29, 2007, 12:59 PM
#13
? If the impact is transferred to the guts (ie. intestines, stomach, colon) it would eviscerate you, not snap the neck. This generally happens because of a strong force on the stomach region produced by a harness, an impact or the stock seatbelt if it's used incorrectly. If a system is designed correctly, it's very safe. Look at rally cars, they can roll over and over again or run into trees and the occupants can walk away without so much as a scratch on them. If it's designed incorrectly though you just end up with a bloody mess.
Apr 29, 2007, 02:36 PM
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Amby, I have to jump in on this one. You're rally car analogy was working for a minute, until you think about the fact that the drivers usually wear helmets of some sort.
In a street car, a roll bar is not, and will never be safe. There are a few reasons.
As has already been pointed out, transfer of energy would be a big deal. You car would not absorb the impact as designed, instead transferring it to you or object you hit. Depending on the type of collision, you will risk damage to basically every body part involved. If you were to hit somebody else, then the energy may transfer more into their car and hurt them worse that it would have.
Another point that has already been stated, but I think could use a bit more detail... Helmets. In order to put a cage in your car and be able to drive it without risking your head, you would have to be wearing a helmet everytime you drive your car. Every tried to look over your shoulder with a helmet on? How about just noticed the difference in your field of vision? You cannot see as much in any direction (except straight ahead) with a helmet on. This will leave you (and other drivers) in a dangerous position since you will not be able to see as much as you need to. Our cars have a big enough blind spot as it is, imagine adding the size and weight of a helmet to make it that much more difficult to see around you. Not exactly a safe situation for anybody. And, a helmet still does nothing for the rest of your body. A helmet will also add such bulk that in the event of a side hit from somebody travelling a decent speed, or you sliding off the road into a tree, pole, or what have you, will be enough force to snap your neck almost everytime.
The added rigidity of the cage is also not necessarily a good thing on a street driven car. Street cars need a certain amount of flex to help them not get erratic on wet or icey roads. Cars are designed to absorb certain amounts of your steering input and road transitions. Sure your cage will help you take that corner faster... on a dry, smooth road. It will make you more likely to lose control in the same corner going slower than everybody else if the road is wet.
Passenger inconveniece. We have seen it said that you will have to wear a helmet and a harness everytime you go somewhere to be safe, but what about your passengers? They will need the same safety equipment as you do. Not exactly something you want to have to provide for them, right? And who will want to wear all of that to go to McDonalds or whatever.
One more occurance I will give you to think about, although not as much of a safety issue, police harassment. You think you get stopped alot now for your big wing and loud exhaust? Wait until they see you driving down the road with a helmet on. Sure, it is DOT approved, but that is generally for motorcycle use. The cop is going to stop you and ask you what the hell you are doing, and then probably issue you a citation for obstruction of view (in the form of your helmet). Take it to court and fight it, you may win, but it won't take much of a test to prove that the ticket was rightfully issued and you will end up paying the fine and court costs.
In the end, it's not really worth it.
Monkey bars, as has been mentioned (4 or 6-point that is fully behind the driver), maybe be less of a pain, but we are discussing roll cages. Most "Monkey Bar" steups that you will buy are going to be poorly designed, less than structurally sound, and mostly just for looks. The attachment methods to actually make a cage safe are spared with most of these setups in an effort to make them bolt-in modifications. Should you actually roll the vehicle over, you may find that your windshield frame and the roof over your head still gets crushed down on top of you, while the bars that are behind you punch through the thin metal of the mounting surfaces that it is attached to. In the end, doing nothing to save you anything.
Good thread though, gave me a chance on a fairly boring Sunday to get the wheels turning in my mind.
In a street car, a roll bar is not, and will never be safe. There are a few reasons.
As has already been pointed out, transfer of energy would be a big deal. You car would not absorb the impact as designed, instead transferring it to you or object you hit. Depending on the type of collision, you will risk damage to basically every body part involved. If you were to hit somebody else, then the energy may transfer more into their car and hurt them worse that it would have.
Another point that has already been stated, but I think could use a bit more detail... Helmets. In order to put a cage in your car and be able to drive it without risking your head, you would have to be wearing a helmet everytime you drive your car. Every tried to look over your shoulder with a helmet on? How about just noticed the difference in your field of vision? You cannot see as much in any direction (except straight ahead) with a helmet on. This will leave you (and other drivers) in a dangerous position since you will not be able to see as much as you need to. Our cars have a big enough blind spot as it is, imagine adding the size and weight of a helmet to make it that much more difficult to see around you. Not exactly a safe situation for anybody. And, a helmet still does nothing for the rest of your body. A helmet will also add such bulk that in the event of a side hit from somebody travelling a decent speed, or you sliding off the road into a tree, pole, or what have you, will be enough force to snap your neck almost everytime.
The added rigidity of the cage is also not necessarily a good thing on a street driven car. Street cars need a certain amount of flex to help them not get erratic on wet or icey roads. Cars are designed to absorb certain amounts of your steering input and road transitions. Sure your cage will help you take that corner faster... on a dry, smooth road. It will make you more likely to lose control in the same corner going slower than everybody else if the road is wet.
Passenger inconveniece. We have seen it said that you will have to wear a helmet and a harness everytime you go somewhere to be safe, but what about your passengers? They will need the same safety equipment as you do. Not exactly something you want to have to provide for them, right? And who will want to wear all of that to go to McDonalds or whatever.
One more occurance I will give you to think about, although not as much of a safety issue, police harassment. You think you get stopped alot now for your big wing and loud exhaust? Wait until they see you driving down the road with a helmet on. Sure, it is DOT approved, but that is generally for motorcycle use. The cop is going to stop you and ask you what the hell you are doing, and then probably issue you a citation for obstruction of view (in the form of your helmet). Take it to court and fight it, you may win, but it won't take much of a test to prove that the ticket was rightfully issued and you will end up paying the fine and court costs.
In the end, it's not really worth it.
Monkey bars, as has been mentioned (4 or 6-point that is fully behind the driver), maybe be less of a pain, but we are discussing roll cages. Most "Monkey Bar" steups that you will buy are going to be poorly designed, less than structurally sound, and mostly just for looks. The attachment methods to actually make a cage safe are spared with most of these setups in an effort to make them bolt-in modifications. Should you actually roll the vehicle over, you may find that your windshield frame and the roof over your head still gets crushed down on top of you, while the bars that are behind you punch through the thin metal of the mounting surfaces that it is attached to. In the end, doing nothing to save you anything.
Good thread though, gave me a chance on a fairly boring Sunday to get the wheels turning in my mind.
Apr 29, 2007, 02:42 PM
#15
I think a roll bar can be safe since the bar is behind the driver and thus not a risk. The big problem with a cage is that the bars are in front, beside and behind you. Autopower makes a nice roll bar that seems to have quite a bit of support from racers.