E85 and Evo Green
Mar 21, 2008, 02:56 PM
#76
I wanted to repost some useful calculations, courtesy of l2r99gst, from another thread that talked about injector sufficiency. (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=332021)
So question: Are 1000 cc's really enough for the green turbo. FP says that green flows 47lb/min of air max.
Answer would be this:
4 1000cc/min injectors flow 4*1000=1000cc/min of fuel
E85 has a specific gravity of about .78 (http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf), so to change the 4000cc to grams, we will multiply cc's by .78.
4 1000cc injectors can flow 4000*.78 = 3120 g/min
Divide by 454 to get lb/min
3120g/min / 454 = 6.87 lbs/min fuel
Let's say we wanna run 7.5 AFR (0.77 lambda or 11.2 on a gas configured wideband), the injectors will be able to support this much airflow:
6.87 * 7.5 = 51.53 lb/min of air
Looks like 1000cc's are plenty for the green turbo on E85.
So question: Are 1000 cc's really enough for the green turbo. FP says that green flows 47lb/min of air max.
Answer would be this:
4 1000cc/min injectors flow 4*1000=1000cc/min of fuel
E85 has a specific gravity of about .78 (http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf), so to change the 4000cc to grams, we will multiply cc's by .78.
4 1000cc injectors can flow 4000*.78 = 3120 g/min
Divide by 454 to get lb/min
3120g/min / 454 = 6.87 lbs/min fuel
Let's say we wanna run 7.5 AFR (0.77 lambda or 11.2 on a gas configured wideband), the injectors will be able to support this much airflow:
6.87 * 7.5 = 51.53 lb/min of air
Looks like 1000cc's are plenty for the green turbo on E85.
May 7, 2008, 03:13 AM
#77
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Ethanol and methanol does not burn faster but SLOWER then gasoline Ron 89-93
Meth 0.43ms
E100 0.39
E85 0.38
Gas 0.34
Because it burns slower, the ignition should be sooner, allows more time to burn. Also because of it to burn slower, it runs more silent/smoother and the force on the piston is more even and all the way down.
AFR with gasoline should be 12.5:1 for max. power
E100 6.5:1
E85 7.5:1
Meth 5:1
With this AFR's E100 will have 20% more energy then gas 89-93. If you already use Ron 96-105 it will be less offcourse. But also because E burns cooler, this will also increase power AND even better, you can run a higher compression ratio, so quicker spool down low.(nice for people who are gonna build a stroker...)
The reason ethanol an meth hold so much power is of the high oxygen content, and that is also its downfall, corrosion from alu, and natural rubbers.
They say if you run E100 of pure meth, you should add a lubricant of some sort, not with E85, the 15% gasoline will provide that.
Cheers Sander
Meth 0.43ms
E100 0.39
E85 0.38
Gas 0.34
Because it burns slower, the ignition should be sooner, allows more time to burn. Also because of it to burn slower, it runs more silent/smoother and the force on the piston is more even and all the way down.
AFR with gasoline should be 12.5:1 for max. power
E100 6.5:1
E85 7.5:1
Meth 5:1
With this AFR's E100 will have 20% more energy then gas 89-93. If you already use Ron 96-105 it will be less offcourse. But also because E burns cooler, this will also increase power AND even better, you can run a higher compression ratio, so quicker spool down low.(nice for people who are gonna build a stroker...)
The reason ethanol an meth hold so much power is of the high oxygen content, and that is also its downfall, corrosion from alu, and natural rubbers.
They say if you run E100 of pure meth, you should add a lubricant of some sort, not with E85, the 15% gasoline will provide that.
Cheers Sander
May 8, 2008, 11:03 AM
#78
^ You are incorrect with burn speed:
Flame propagation depends on lambda but for example at 1 lambda:
Gasoline is ~27cm/s
Ethanol is ~38cm/s
If you're curios this info is from EPA.
This is right, just worded a little weird. Oxygen does not contain power, the fact that Ethanol contains more oxygen that gasoline allows it to be burned at richer AFR than gas, meaning there's more actual fuel in the mixture - and that's what makes power.
And i have mentioned this a number of times in this thread.. And i keep telling it to everyone who will listen
Especially people that keep saying that ethanol makes less power than gasoline because FOX news told them so 
Flame propagation depends on lambda but for example at 1 lambda:
Gasoline is ~27cm/s
Ethanol is ~38cm/s
If you're curios this info is from EPA.
The reason ethanol an meth hold so much power is of the high oxygen content, and that is also its downfall, corrosion from alu, and natural rubbers.
And i have mentioned this a number of times in this thread.. And i keep telling it to everyone who will listen
Especially people that keep saying that ethanol makes less power than gasoline because FOX news told them so
May 8, 2008, 01:26 PM
#79
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^ You are incorrect with burn speed:
Flame propagation depends on lambda but for example at 1 lambda:
Gasoline is ~27cm/s
Ethanol is ~38cm/s
If you're curios this info is from EPA.
This is right, just worded a little weird. Oxygen does not contain power, the fact that Ethanol contains more oxygen that gasoline allows it to be burned at richer AFR than gas, meaning there's more actual fuel in the mixture - and that's what makes power.
And i have mentioned this a number of times in this thread.. And i keep telling it to everyone who will listen Especially people that keep saying that ethanol makes less power than gasoline because FOX news told them so
Flame propagation depends on lambda but for example at 1 lambda:
Gasoline is ~27cm/s
Ethanol is ~38cm/s
If you're curios this info is from EPA.
This is right, just worded a little weird. Oxygen does not contain power, the fact that Ethanol contains more oxygen that gasoline allows it to be burned at richer AFR than gas, meaning there's more actual fuel in the mixture - and that's what makes power.
And i have mentioned this a number of times in this thread.. And i keep telling it to everyone who will listen
Especially people that keep saying that ethanol makes less power than gasoline because FOX news told them so Keep talking, I'll keep listening.
May 9, 2008, 02:34 AM
#80
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Mplspilot is right!
E and M burns faster!
And thats what I mean, more O2 and less BTU per lb but you have to use more fuel so the netto result is more BTU.
Timing should be about the same as with gas on low loads and a little more advanced on high loads(if the AFR is not to rich!)
Question: You can run more boost on E than on gas and/or you can run higher CR.
How much higher could the CR be with E?
E and M burns faster!
And thats what I mean, more O2 and less BTU per lb but you have to use more fuel so the netto result is more BTU.
Timing should be about the same as with gas on low loads and a little more advanced on high loads(if the AFR is not to rich!)
Question: You can run more boost on E than on gas and/or you can run higher CR.
How much higher could the CR be with E?
May 9, 2008, 08:18 AM
#81
Mplspilot is right!
E and M burns faster!
And thats what I mean, more O2 and less BTU per lb but you have to use more fuel so the netto result is more BTU.
Timing should be about the same as with gas on low loads and a little more advanced on high loads(if the AFR is not to rich!)
Question: You can run more boost on E than on gas and/or you can run higher CR.
How much higher could the CR be with E?
E and M burns faster!
And thats what I mean, more O2 and less BTU per lb but you have to use more fuel so the netto result is more BTU.
Timing should be about the same as with gas on low loads and a little more advanced on high loads(if the AFR is not to rich!)
Question: You can run more boost on E than on gas and/or you can run higher CR.
How much higher could the CR be with E?
Jun 23, 2008, 08:26 AM
#83
you dont need 1000cc injectors necessarily, to reach that HP level. There is someone on this board making over 420whp on his stock 8 turbo w/ 10.5 w/ cams and other mods on E85 and runs like 750's or 780's...care to explain? I am not attacking you at all though...but when you say you NEED 1000cc's to run E85 is not the smartest thing to say?
1000s are the recommended size because each car is a little different and 1000s are gonna cover it. I have 780's and reach 83%IDC on 91oct with an AFR of 11.2 at redline and boost around 21psi.
Jun 23, 2008, 08:49 AM
#84
If you have a WB that can be configured for E85, it will be whatever you put in the multiplier, e.g. 9.8
AFR that you see on WB screen is Lambda multiplied by whatever number the WB is configured to use. In most cases it's 14.7 because that is the gasoline AFR at 1 Lambda.
For what it's worth, my cruise and idle AFR's are configured to be 16 (again this is gas configured WB number which means it's 1.09 Lambda or ~10.68 E85 AFR if one wanted to get technical) right now. I did it to get better mpg.
Jun 23, 2008, 10:07 AM
#85
Cruising AFR that you will see on a gas configured wideband will be 14.7
If you have a WB that can be configured for E85, it will be whatever you put in the multiplier, e.g. 9.8
AFR that you see on WB screen is Lambda multiplied by whatever number the WB is configured to use. In most cases it's 14.7 because that is the gasoline AFR at 1 Lambda.
For what it's worth, my cruise and idle AFR's are configured to be 16 (again this is gas configured WB number which means it's 1.09 Lambda or ~10.68 E85 AFR if one wanted to get technical) right now. I did it to get better mpg.
If you have a WB that can be configured for E85, it will be whatever you put in the multiplier, e.g. 9.8
AFR that you see on WB screen is Lambda multiplied by whatever number the WB is configured to use. In most cases it's 14.7 because that is the gasoline AFR at 1 Lambda.
For what it's worth, my cruise and idle AFR's are configured to be 16 (again this is gas configured WB number which means it's 1.09 Lambda or ~10.68 E85 AFR if one wanted to get technical) right now. I did it to get better mpg.
Jun 23, 2008, 11:07 AM
#86
My EGT gauge tragically ended its life about 6 months after i installed it... So I don't monitor EGT's any longer because I don't feel like paying $80 a pop twice a year for something that I feel isn't all that important for tuning in the first place.
Jun 23, 2008, 01:56 PM
#88
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So what would the IDC be at 8000 RPMS @ 28 Psi with the green? I was going to get 1150cc injectors for when I get a green.
I wanted to repost some useful calculations, courtesy of l2r99gst, from another thread that talked about injector sufficiency. (https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=332021)
So question: Are 1000 cc's really enough for the green turbo. FP says that green flows 47lb/min of air max.
Answer would be this:
4 1000cc/min injectors flow 4*1000=1000cc/min of fuel
E85 has a specific gravity of about .78 (http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf), so to change the 4000cc to grams, we will multiply cc's by .78.
4 1000cc injectors can flow 4000*.78 = 3120 g/min
Divide by 454 to get lb/min
3120g/min / 454 = 6.87 lbs/min fuel
Let's say we wanna run 7.5 AFR (0.77 lambda or 11.2 on a gas configured wideband), the injectors will be able to support this much airflow:
6.87 * 7.5 = 51.53 lb/min of air
Looks like 1000cc's are plenty for the green turbo on E85.
So question: Are 1000 cc's really enough for the green turbo. FP says that green flows 47lb/min of air max.
Answer would be this:
4 1000cc/min injectors flow 4*1000=1000cc/min of fuel
E85 has a specific gravity of about .78 (http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/40243.pdf), so to change the 4000cc to grams, we will multiply cc's by .78.
4 1000cc injectors can flow 4000*.78 = 3120 g/min
Divide by 454 to get lb/min
3120g/min / 454 = 6.87 lbs/min fuel
Let's say we wanna run 7.5 AFR (0.77 lambda or 11.2 on a gas configured wideband), the injectors will be able to support this much airflow:
6.87 * 7.5 = 51.53 lb/min of air
Looks like 1000cc's are plenty for the green turbo on E85.
Jun 23, 2008, 03:25 PM
#89
Every set-up is different by the way. At the same boost level you can put more air through the engine depending on one's particular mods. So the higher VE your motor has, the better IC you have and the higher boost you can hold by redline - the more fuel you will need. So it's tough to estimate IDC's.. It also depends on AFR preferences...So many variables..
1150 is a pretty good choice though i think. They should be plenty good to max out the green turbo on E85.
Last edited by mplspilot; Jun 23, 2008 at 03:32 PM.
