GreyLancerES

Hey guys,

First time poster here and I’m hoping someone can help me. I have a 2002 Lancer ES that is having some a very rough idling problem. I bought the car in 2003 with 27k miles on it and it now has 177k plus miles on it. The car was idling fine and I brought it to my mechanic with an unrelated issue recently. When I went to pick it up thought it is now idling like crap.

Here is some background info. Back in February of this year the battery and brake lights on the dash started flickering while driving. The headlights and wipers would either dim/slowdown or get bright/speed along with the flickering brake/battery lights. I drove like this for a month and went to start the car one day and it wouldn’t along with a really bad sulfur smell.

I towed the car to my mechanic and he told me that my alternator went bad and it fried my battery as well, since I waited so long to take it in. He did the following work in 2/2014: replaced battery, alternator and alternator belt.

I got the car back and all was well except it squealed right after start up for the first 30 or so. I had my mechanic change my oil in May, so I asked him to fix the squeal, as well. Picked up the car and all is good, with no squeal. This was 5/14/2014.

Then about a week later I notice while driving that the battery/brake lights start flickering again while driving. Not as bright or as much as it was before, but it was acting up again. Unfortunately, I had to wait about a week and half to bring it back in to my mechanic. The car actually wouldn’t turn when I finally went to bring it to him, so I had to jump it in order to get it there.

Here are the notes from the work that was done: over charging. Replaced alternator. Diagnosed open in wiring to alternator. Rewire to a 12-volt with ignition on. Removed and cleaned starter wire to battery. Idles rough. Checked for codes. Removed and checked plugs. Repaired vacuum leaks. Road tested. Still idles rough. Further diagnosis needed. Battery light is off and it charges normally.

My mechanic is a one-man shop. I picked up my car afterhours, so he was not there. When I started it, I immediately noticed the rough idle. It was not doing this when I dropped the car off. I drove home and a little after I was halfway home I noticed the battery/brake light flashed brightly a couple of times. Not weak and dim flickering like before, but very fast and bright. When sitting at stoplights the car felt like it was about to stall. Then after waiting at a stop light and going the car just died and I coasted off to the shoulder. I waited a minute and tried starting the car. It turned, but would not start. I gave it another minute and kept turning the car with no luck. I then started mashing the gas pedal down with it started back up. So, I raced home and parked the car.

I called my mechanic and he said that every time he goes into my car it’s like opening up a can of worms/something else goes wrong. He did not know why the car was idling like that, but thought it was drivable, which is why he told me to pick it up. Unfortunately, since he is a one-man shop he can’t monkey around with my cars for hours on end. He told me to bring it back in and would charge a $100 diagnostic fee and would start trouble shooting from the beginning. He said he would run a compression test on it and see where things go from there.

I haven’t brought the car back to him yet, as I’ve been trying to decide what to do. Does anyone have any ideas, as to what could be causing this? Should I bring it back to him, since he is familiar with my car or bring it to someone else for a pair of second eyes? Do I dare bring it to a Mitsubishi dealership? I don’t want to buy a new car, but I’m starting to fear that the time may finally be here.

Any help is greatly appreciated and I can answer any questions!

Sincerely,

Lancer Guy that desperately needs his car fixed

RT78

From all the info you listed sounds like it's a wiring problem. Unfortunately those can be a pita to track down, I'd start by checking all the grounds. A corroded ground can cause havoc with the electrical system as it wont allow the proper amount of voltage to cycle through the system. Once the grounds are taken care of then I'd move on to the charging system circuit and check that out for any issues. Does the check engine light flash at all while the car is running?

GreyLancerES

Thanks for the help. I actually dropped the car off at my mechanic's shop earlier today. I included some research that I had gather from the forums and left it with the car for some suggestions.

I'll keep you posted as I hear from him. The check engine light does not flash at all when the car is running. It also did not flash when the battery/brake lights were flashing. I have always had code p0421 appear from the cel, but my mechanics have always erased it, as they have checked and said it wasn't a serious issue.

RT78

Well, it's most likely from a failing O2 sensor or your warm up cat is a bit clogged. It's not a major issue but will hurt you gas mileage, and possibly power wise. Since you have no other codes from the CEL, I'd think it's definitely a wiring issue. But a clogged cat can do strange things to the efficiency of the motor, one of my old cars would run rough and seem like it was gonna stall out if I stopped the motor and restarted it after a few seconds. I'm not saying that's your problem, just that the lights and driveability symptoms may not necessarily be related.

Metalsoft1

Also keep in mind each and every time you disconnect the battery it needs time to re-learn the idle.

I am not saying that is a problem, bit it will idle really rough if you do not go through the re-learning procedure.

Start, Let idle for 8 mins, drive for 10 mins. Turn off them back on, should find the idle again.

When I disconnect my battery from time to time, It really idle rough, to the point of going dead if I do not follow the procedure.

As far as the flickering, it is definitely a wiring problem. I am thinking a corroded ground wire somewhere on the chassis. I would also check the positive battery terminal, as the fuse box on top sometimes give troubles.

GreyLancerES

Part of my exhaust corroded last year and fell apart. The cel was on with p0421. My mechanic erased the code and replaced the exhaust pipe. Just the intermediate exhaust pipe. I remember us talking about the cat in the front and the back and I think I made the decision to not replace it and see how it goes. I'll have to check with him to see exactly what we did.

I guess the part I'm trying to figure out is why did the rough idle start up from whatever other electrical issues he was trying to fix.

So, it sounds like it's most likely two issues...possibly a clogged cat or bad O2 sensor and some sore of wiring issues (possible corrosion)?

Thanks for the help.

GreyLancerES

I'm hoping my mechanic did this already regarding the re-learning of the idle. The car is getting looked at right now. I'm waiting to hear back for any updates.

hoino11

I know what your mechanic means about the "opening a can of worms" thing... sometimes I feel as if these have the DSM curse. Just curious though, when the new belt was installed how tense was the belt set? With the squealing thing it almost makes me wonder if your belt stretched out of spec or if the alternator pivot belt came loose like mine did, so check that for sure. Quick way to judge that is if you can rotate the belt on the longest run 90 degrees (no further) with your fingers you're good. As for the O2 sensor/cat thing try removing the cat(s) and clean with lacquer thinner, then spray some Deoxit to clean the corrosion off the tips of the O2 sensors

GreyLancerES

I have no idea about the setting of the belt. My mechanic did this, so I'm hoping that's all squared away.

I talked to him today and he told me that the car is throwing code p0335. He doesn't think that's related to the idle problem though and he doesn't think the cat is the cause either. Thoughts?

RT78

That would be why the motor died and you couldn't start it up again right away. It's for a failed crankshaft sensor, which is a pita to replace as it's under the lower timing belt cover. As far as I know it wouldn't cause the rough idle, however if you have an issue with the upstream O2 sensor, that very well could cause a rough idle. If this were me, I'd clear the code for the CKS and replicate the issue, then replace it. I'd also test the front O2 sensor to make sure it was functioning properly, then do a backpressure test on the exhaust to check the level of clogging in the manifold. And that's just for the failed sensor and idle issues, the flickering lights is a whole other ball game.

hoino11

Could the flickering of the lights be due to some kind of voltage regulator issue that's external to the alternator? I'll have to pour through all of the wiring diagrams to see if there is a common enemy between all the electrical issues and if we have a circuit that serves a voltage/current regulation purpose... As for the crank angle sensor trouble code, just have to ask the simple questions first. Did the lower timing cover come loose at all? Or maybe since the crank angle sensor is such a piece of work to line up when installing the cover one of the pins isn't connecting properly?

EDIT: Below is what common points I've found in the wiring diagrams between the problems with your headlights, wipers, gauge cluster warning lights, 02 sensor(s), and crank angle sensor. Many more vital sensors/relays are controlled by these few possible points of interest, so the rough idle isn't out of the question with these same points.

hoino11

I have a list of electrical connections for you to check. Let me know what you find for each of these....

1. Open the fuse box in the passenger compartment. Inspect "junction block fuse #2" (first picture)

2. Open the engine compartment fuse/relay box. Inspect "relay box fuse #12" (second pic)

3. Check the condition of your ground strap located between your motor mount (passenger side one) and timing cover.

4. Check the condition of "Grounding point #11" under the hood. This is located right underneath your camshaft position sensor under the right side of the timing cover (3rd pic)

GreyLancerES

Here's an update from my mechanic. See notes below:

Scanned for codes. P0421 and P0335 are stored. The code P0335 is a crank sensor code. These codes shouldn't cause a rough idle. Removed front cover and checked timing marks. Timing is good for now. Needs timing belt. (Old and cracked). Removed spark plugs and did compression test. All cylinders at about 150psi. Engine vacuum is low. 10 inG. It should be closer to 20 inHg. Smoke tested intake system checking for vacuum leaks. Also used propane. Needs EGR solenoid. Estimated additional cost is $75.

If I leave the EGR disconnected it runs perfect.. If you want the EGR system to function properly it will be an additional $75..

What do you guys think?

RT78

Well for starters, the compression is low. The minimum limit with the throttle fully opened(@200 r/min) is 170 psi, you're 20psi low on all cylinders. The only thing I can think of is maybe he didn't open the throttle during the test. The propane is used to test the reaction of the O2 sensor voltage to see if it's pegged at a fixed reading. After adding propane the value should go up to .900 mV (if it doesn't then the sensor is bad and needs to be replaced)he should have told you the results of that test. He also should have told you the results of the smoke test. If the EGR solenoid were bad, you'd get a p0403 code. The EGR valve itself can be cleaned(which is most likely the problem due to no p0403), you don't necessarily have to replace it. And the low vacuum can very well be caused by the low compression, but if you couple that (the low vacuum)with the p0421 code and I'd say you have a pretty well clogged warm up cat. That has me thinking that you may have burned exhaust valves(not badly burned though) due to the restriction in the warm up cat(restriction can make the valves run hot), which would give you low compression, but it could just be from the exhaust restriction as we only have one bank of cylinders. In my opinion, not to slam the guy but I think you need to find a new mechanic and get the timing belt replaced as soon as possible, if that breaks on you you're gonna need valves replaced and that's gonna cost some serious cash.

jwick76

iTrader: (1)

Um, the camshaft codes will cause rough idle. I've had that issue previously with a different head. It was intermittent though, and I attributed it to a bad timing belt change as the engine eventually disintegrated. Hard thing to prove though, as it had other issues. Needless to say, not going to that mechanic again.


As for the alternator/grounding/voltage regulator issue, I'm having the same problem: replaced battery (tested bad, only charging to 7.2v...7yr old optima redtop), bad voltage regulator on the alternator (bought from CAP), replaced with FOUR before I found a good one...Advance Auto was bad, ebay 140amp HO (two of them) were bad, finally got one from Autozone and had them test everything (including voltage regulator), and got that to work. However, now I'm at the point where it's either a bad PCM (going to sell the car if that's the case) or a bad alternator relay, which I hear is a shared relay with the horn possibly? Can anyone confirm?

As for the rough idle, get a new cam position sensor (they're fairly cheap and super easy to install). If you have a stock exhaust, there was a recall on the first cat by the engine where the PCM needs to be reflashed as it melts the cat. I'm thinking the PCMs on these are just junk and destined to fail at some point...so if I can't find a relay to troubleshoot I'm getting rid of my 2003 OZ.