Piggyback.... to be or not to be?

PGDlancer · Dec 10, 2006, 03:39 PM

This thread has been stickied due to the solid, informative and helpful discussion below. Please read the whole thread for best results.
-Blacksheepdj

Ok, I'm sorry if this is in the wrong section, but I have been doing a LOT of searching and reading and am still confused.

I have saved some cash up and am looking to add some "go" with my "show". Anyway, I was really interested in the piggyback (and still am) since I have a catback and K&N filter, but then I read ***ECUFlash Now For Base Lancers!*** and other threads to make me really confused. I was going to PM ROCK, but then I thought maybe other people are just as confused.

On one hand, the piggy is definitely a lot easier in theory. It also has RRM's customer service backing it up, as well as a lot less ways for me to screw things up. On the other hand, other methods of tuning are less money (right?), but would require me getting it tuned at a shop, but don't I need to tweek things every time I add a engine mod?

I BELIEVE that is all correct, and even those facts seem to be under debate. I would love to drop a turbo into my car, but that is at the very least a VERY distant plan. From what I gathered in that 23 page thread linked above, turbo's would benfit more from the manual tunes anyway, is that correct?

I am so lost and really need some clarification from the evom crew. Please keep the opinions to a minimal unless you back it up with fact. (ie. no "rrm is over rated" or "rrm is the only way to go"). Don't get me wrong, I love RRM and will always support them when it is what is best for my lancer and for me, but I want factual discussion here. Sound good? PLEASE HELP!!!

dewood* · Dec 10, 2006, 05:12 PM

I'm confused about a lot of things with the piggyback too, hopefull someone can clear some stuff up for us

eehjay · Dec 10, 2006, 05:32 PM

From what I gather just from what people say, the piggy is good for N/A and other methods are good for FI.

iufan4lifeul · Dec 10, 2006, 06:36 PM

Ok, my detailed review of the piggyback:

I bought mine used from a guy on the board and had it reflashed for free by Road Race. I also bought the software to go with it. I had a local shop wire up the piggy for $75. First impressions weren't that great. I really couldn't feel anything except a little throttle response. Then I took it on the highway

. GREAT pull on the highway. Took it a week or so to fully learn. Then I started seeing noticable improvements everywhere. On stock tune my AFR's were in the high 11's. 13 is the best. I had a shop hook it up to a wideband and tune it out to 12.8-13 and it now runs like a champ. I own I/H/E civics like they are snails. I can hold with SE-R's, mustangs (including GT's up to a certain point), etc. I just can't wait to put headers and an intake manifold on this *****.

PGDlancer · Dec 10, 2006, 09:36 PM

these are great points, but please don't just comment on the piggy. I know it is a good mod, but I am wondering if it is a better option than the manual tune ( which the link in my first post mentions ) for a NA lancer.

I just want what is best for my lancer, ya know?

DemisedGabe · Dec 10, 2006, 10:12 PM

well either way u look at it....ur gonna have to pay someone to tune it, but rrm's PB is tuned pretty well and if u want more power, u can tune it also by urself or professionally.

Z_Lancer_Man · Dec 11, 2006, 07:51 AM

PGDlancer - hopefully this will help you out.

RRM Piggyback vs. ECUFlash (or other fully tunable methods)

Simply put, it depends on how much you want to do. I've used both the version 1 and version 2 piggybacks. They help add a little power. But I must emphasize that. You must understand that RRM is selling these having no idea really the mods people will be using. And any tune that is "universal" will never be a truly good tune. Every car is different and mods effect each car differently. So the piggyback leans out the car a little on the top end (hence why you mostly feel the gains on the freeway). However, you can also get the software with it. This allows you a little freedom to tweak the fuel curves for your particular car. But you will need to get a wideband to be sure not to take out too much fuel. If you are pretty clueless about tuning and don't want to learn and just want something out of the box, and are willing to pay a pretty penny for it, then the piggyback will work for you.

Now, all that said, if you want a real tune for your car, then ECUFlash or the like is definately the way to go. You get freedom to adjust anything on your car. Fuel, timing, injectors, anything and everything. However, with more freedom comes more responsibility. You really need to know what you are doing. There are many threads now about how to tune yourself. The best part of this method is that you can get a truly custom tune - something that works best for your car and your mods. However, you also need to get a wideband and some sort of datalogger so you can see how your adjustments are affecting the car. This method is also a lot cheaper right off, but can be expensive if you spend a lot of time on a dyno or get a shop to tune it for you. ECUflash (free), cable (~$90), wideband (~$250), datalogger (~$35), dyno time (~$65 for three pulls), pro tune at shop (~$150 an hour).

ECUFlash is a much better investment if you plan on doing a lot to your car. If you are just going to do a header, intake, and maybe exhaust, then the piggyback is your best bet since this is pretty much what it was meant for. But if you plan to do a lot, like turbo, or even a ton of NA work (intake manifold, throttle body, injectors, head, cams, etc) then you will want the freedom and flexibility of the full tuning software.

Hopefully that helps give you a better idea!

PGDlancer · Dec 11, 2006, 08:20 AM

wow, thank you z_lancer_man, that was incredibly helpful. I am going to wait about a week or so and then make a purchase. please keep the input coming guys.

ROCK · Dec 11, 2006, 12:23 PM

They piggy 2 years ago had a little problem in cold weather. That is long been solved and we have not seen an issue since 2004. At $399 it does not come with software and piggies never came with a cable. You are good to go in cold weather. We have guys in Newfoundland, Buffalo etc.... Coldest places on the continent without issues. Z Lancer, can talk about flash thingy. ECU flash is not for everyone FOR SURE! You need knowledge, an wide band or dyno time. It all costs money. Prices Z put up may or may not be what you would pay in your area. 3 pulls for a pro might get it done but I doubt it. I am a pro and I need more than 3 pulls to properly tune anything! Expect $100-300 worth of dyno time alone. Without it you can DAMAGE your engine. Flash is a capable thing but you are in for a lot more than a cable etc....

Thanks RRM

ROAD/RACE

PGDlancer · Dec 13, 2006, 10:28 PM

I have to be honest here. I am definitely leaning toward the piggy right now. I'll give it a few more days to try and get some more input, but it seems like a NA lancer with minimal experience with true tuning would do better with the piggy. It sounds like the costs of each method would be comparable and the piggy would be quite a bit easier, with similar gains for me. Maybe a wideband and software down the road, but I am still in college, so I don't have the time to screw around with that till at least the summer. So, I guess...... bump for input!

THANKS FOR THE HELP SO FAR, especially rock and Z_lancer

ROCK · Dec 13, 2006, 11:28 PM

Call me tomorrow. I will gladly answer your questions even if you are not ready to buy yet. Ask for me.

ROAD/RACE

iyi0521 · Dec 15, 2006, 08:22 AM

An SAFC falls right in the middle right? Gives you the ability to tweak the fuel but not the timing. Still need a wideband and datalogger and your still gonna need dyno time. Is it comparable to the ecuflash? Or did i waste alot of money on it?

blaze_125 · Dec 15, 2006, 09:17 AM

ECU tune capabilities own the piggyback day and night. Plain and simple.

Now piggyback is more for newbies who don't want to get tooo involved with tuning which is understandable.

If you want a Piggy Version 1. Let me know... got one fore sale. Not cause I don't like, not cause I don't like RRM... car is going back to stock.

ROCK · Dec 15, 2006, 12:38 PM

ECU flash has more features but with that comes more responsibility. You can easily mess something up. Plus I do not think you can get more power out of it on the same octane fuel etc..... Piggy is the way to go for 80% of you guys out there. Someone like Blaze has tuned alot so he can prolly get things going with flash.

ROAD/RACE

rally-on · Dec 15, 2006, 12:53 PM

rock
with the hook up part,,, do u have to splice the wires and stuff or is it a plug and play also i am planning on getting one do i need some software or is that something i can get down the road ,,i have a SRI for now and to be honest i will only get a pully and exahust and head-r thats all so this is the set up i will stick with,,is there anything else you want to let me in on that would be great
thanks,,,it is for a 05 ES