Valve springs PROs? & CONs?

malymabl97 · Oct 21, 2009, 07:02 AM

I am thinking of putting in the cosworth MX1 cams and I was wondering if I should also upgrade the valve springs. What are the PROs and CONs of changing the valve springs?

Thanks

UT_EvoX · Oct 21, 2009, 09:58 AM

Pros:

- ability to rev higher safely (and make more power depending on your VE characteristics)

Cons:

- install is a pain in the ass
- greater valvetrain wear due to more tension (valves, valve seats mainly)

HeadGames · Oct 21, 2009, 04:28 PM

it can really only help. Your not going to put any more stress on the valvetrain components (valves,seats) you will actually be saving them, because what will really beat it up is valve float. Pressure won't hurt them a bit...well, at least the amount your going to run. And a bigger cam with faster ramp speeds and more lift will wear your springs out faster then stock stuff. And you will be able to take full advantage of the RPM the cam will give you! So, although it is a pain, it's worth it. It's a win-win besides your busted knuckles!

We also have rebuild packages that can aid you if you find it easier to just take the head off, and offer free shipping.

UT_EvoX · Oct 21, 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadGames

it can really only help. Your not going to put any more stress on the valvetrain components (valves,seats) you will actually be saving them, because what will really beat it up is valve float. Pressure won't hurt them a bit...well, at least the amount your going to run. And a bigger cam with faster ramp speeds and more lift will wear your springs out faster then stock stuff. And you will be able to take full advantage of the RPM the cam will give you! So, although it is a pain, it's worth it. It's a win-win besides your busted knuckles!

We also have rebuild packages that can aid you if you find it easier to just take the head off, and offer free shipping.

Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on this. Higher tension springs WILL cause your valvetrain to wear out faster. Fact. How much faster, hard to say, and one could say the extra wear is negligible but it will be happening. Puts extra wear on the camshafts as well... You argue as though he's going to be now pushing the engine to 8000+ rpm 24/7 where the upgraded springs in fact ARE beneficial to the health of the engine as they are avoiding piston-to-valve contact, but the reality is he's probably going to be spending the majority of the time in the 2000-4000 rpm range just cruising.

But like I said, the extra wear is negligible, but the way you just stated all of that sounds like a straight up sales ad. I gave the OP the realistic cons of running higher tension valve springs. Do the pro's outweigh the cons in my opinion, YES, but I'm also not trying to sell a product.

UT_EvoX · Oct 21, 2009, 04:42 PM

Forgot to add another pro in agreement with HeadGames, but obviously higher-lift and higher-duration camshafts demand more of the stock valve springs, and therefore a major pro of upgrading them is avoiding any fatigue-related valve spring failure.

HeadGames · Oct 21, 2009, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on this. Higher tension springs WILL cause your valvetrain to wear out faster. Fact. How much faster, hard to say, and one could say the extra wear is negligible but it will be happening. Puts extra wear on the camshafts as well... You argue as though he's going to be now pushing the engine to 8000+ rpm 24/7 where the upgraded springs in fact ARE beneficial to the health of the engine as they are avoiding piston-to-valve contact, but the reality is he's probably going to be spending the majority of the time in the 2000-4000 rpm range just cruising.

But like I said, the extra wear is negligible, but the way you just stated all of that sounds like a straight up sales ad. I gave the OP the realistic cons of running higher tension valve springs. Do the pro's outweigh the cons in my opinion, YES, but I'm also not trying to sell a product.

.

Before you speak down to someone that has forgotten more then you will ever know about cylinder heads and give advice you should first be able to grapple the idea of what your trying to convey. Piston to valve clearance has absolutely NOTHING to do with a valve spring...Valve float is what I spoke of, and that occurs when the spring wears and/or there is not adequate spring pressure..The adverse effects of this can be seen on the stem of the valve as well as the seat, as the valve will "rattle" wearing on the stem, and beat the 45 out of the usable range and in some extreme cases break the head of the valve off. All of that, things we have seen for years of owning a cylinder head shop, not just reading a book or talking to the guy down the street is why I offered my advice that a spring offers nothing but greatness and confidence. The good certainly outweighs the bad. If it's going to wear, we want it as a more controlled wear, and that is what the spring will offer.

My last statement in the original post certainly was a plug in getting something done...what a douche I am for trying to help someone who is looking for help in a choice.

UT_EvoX · Oct 21, 2009, 06:06 PM

What a condescending post lmao... piston-to-valve clearance is EXACTLY what you have to worry about when experiencing valve float. Just because I don't work on cylinder heads for a living doesn't mean I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Way to be extremely rude.

Besides, I said piston-to-valve contact. If you're going to start to get personal like you already have, at least READ the post beforehand. I'll just let the mods deal with your piss poor attitude, I don't have time for your ego.

Hiboost · Oct 21, 2009, 06:35 PM

The UFC fight isn't until Saturday night guys...

As for the topic at hand I would definitely get springs if you want to rev the 4B11 above 8000 on a regular basis. Personally I've tested it without them to 8300 without valve float but those were on stock cams. Buschur has been north of 8500 while Xtremeboost grenaded theirs at 8100 I believe, some of it is luck of the draw but if you have a larger turbo and want to rev high with cams then valve springs are a must in my book and well worth any minimal extra wear on the valvetrain.

flyguycfi · Oct 21, 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

What a condescending post lmao... piston-to-valve clearance is EXACTLY what you have to worry about when experiencing valve float. Just because I don't work on cylinder heads for a living doesn't mean I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Way to be extremely rude.

Besides, I said piston-to-valve contact. If you're going to start to get personal like you already have, at least READ the post beforehand. I'll just let the mods deal with your piss poor attitude, I don't have time for your ego.

He runs a cylinder head shop. I'm going to have to say he definitely has more experience with head/valve work.

On that note, do you all make an evo X CNC/ported head?

HeadGames · Oct 21, 2009, 07:10 PM

nope...hand ported however

take a look!

HeadGames/Big Valley team up to make the fastest X..even faster!

DRAG · Oct 22, 2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UT_EvoX

Sorry, but I'm going to call BS on this. Higher tension springs WILL cause your valvetrain to wear out faster. Fact. How much faster, hard to say, and one could say the extra wear is negligible but it will be happening. Puts extra wear on the camshafts as well... You argue as though he's going to be now pushing the engine to 8000+ rpm 24/7 where the upgraded springs in fact ARE beneficial to the health of the engine as they are avoiding piston-to-valve contact, but the reality is he's probably going to be spending the majority of the time in the 2000-4000 rpm range just cruising.

But like I said, the extra wear is negligible, but the way you just stated all of that sounds like a straight up sales ad. I gave the OP the realistic cons of running higher tension valve springs. Do the pro's outweigh the cons in my opinion, YES, but I'm also not trying to sell a product.

There is a lot you aren't thinking about. Every time the valve closes it bounces on the seat. A more aggressive camshaft profile that challenges the capabilities of the OEM spring could cause more valvetrain wear than the heavier seat pressure of the aftermarket spring. If the valvetrain is out of control, not only is it going to beat up parts, you are missing out on horsepower that you could have with a properly setup spring combination. It isn't just about the lift of the cam or the rpm, but what about boost pressure. The OEM spring was designed for a specific operating range... 7600rpm, stock cam lobe, and 24psi. You start throwing in aggressive ramp speeds, more rpm, and more boost pressure that takes away from the seat pressure, and that valvespring is overwhelmed before you know it. An overwhelmed spring will fatigue really fast and lose its integrity. I have seen a spring lose 10lbs of seat pressure in 5 passes down the 1/4 just from a more aggressive ramp...no boost pressure. People don't often treat valvesprings as a wear item, but they are...just like brake pads and a clutch. They need replaced over time.

With these little valves, and steel seats, you don't need to worry about spring pressure beating up the seats. We run HUGE seat pressures on 37mm valve stuff and the seat is the last thing we worry about.

What we do run into with high pressure springs is deflection in the camshaft. All of the cheaper cams use cast cores and they are prone to a lot more flexing. Billet cores will not do this so much..but I don't know if anyone is using billets on X cams.

UT_EvoX · Oct 22, 2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRAG

There is a lot you aren't thinking about. Every time the valve closes it bounces on the seat. A more aggressive camshaft profile that challenges the capabilities of the OEM spring could cause more valvetrain wear than the heavier seat pressure of the aftermarket spring. If the valvetrain is out of control, not only is it going to beat up parts, you are missing out on horsepower that you could have with a properly setup spring combination. It isn't just about the lift of the cam or the rpm, but what about boost pressure. The OEM spring was designed for a specific operating range... 7600rpm, stock cam lobe, and 24psi. You start throwing in aggressive ramp speeds, more rpm, and more boost pressure that takes away from the seat pressure, and that valvespring is overwhelmed before you know it. An overwhelmed spring will fatigue really fast and lose its integrity. I have seen a spring lose 10lbs of seat pressure in 5 passes down the 1/4 just from a more aggressive ramp...no boost pressure. People don't often treat valvesprings as a wear item, but they are...just like brake pads and a clutch. They need replaced over time.

With these little valves, and steel seats, you don't need to worry about spring pressure beating up the seats. We run HUGE seat pressures on 37mm valve stuff and the seat is the last thing we worry about.

What we do run into with high pressure springs is deflection in the camshaft. All of the cheaper cams use cast cores and they are prone to a lot more flexing. Billet cores will not do this so much..but I don't know if anyone is using billets on X cams.

Completely true and excellent input, thanks for that. Just please don't assume all of us are ignorant to all of these variables

I figured the OP already really knew the pro's of upgraded valve springs, so those were the absolute only con's I could think of. Effectively a non-issue, but still a con.

spdracerut · Oct 22, 2009, 06:53 PM

I'll agree with UT_EvoX on this one. It's very rare that you get a free lunch.

Obviously, the stiffer valve springs are there to better control the valve at high rpms. Another way of saying it, their advantage comes in when the stock valve springs are unable to properly control the valves.

What's the downside? Added wear and added friction. OEMs will put in the lightest spring that will do the job to their standard, to maximize fuel economy.

If you're going to maximize power, then obviously, you'll want to stiffer springs to allow yourself to rev higher. But don't ignore the negatives.

imboostinnow · Oct 22, 2009, 07:05 PM

+1 i think its a good upgrade as long as you are doing the cams also

strocse · Oct 22, 2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malymabl97

I am thinking of putting in the cosworth MX1 cams and I was wondering if I should also upgrade the valve springs. What are the PROs and CONs of changing the valve springs?

Thanks

You have only bolt on's now, If you screw up the tranny you can easily replace to stock and get the $8,000 tranny serviced. The engine has Varible cams as it is. Without going big turbo I dont think that is where u want to go. I have a MR and not having a warranty on that tranny is scary to me.