Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

Guys I need some help here, getting really hard starts on Paul's Evo X MR that I'm prepping for One Lap. I'm also on a time crunch and tomorrow I'm heading to Washington DC area to pick up Paul at the Airport and heading to Summit Point with NASA for a couple of days of HPDE driving to learn the course and shake down the car.

I installed DW 1000cc injectors, newer version that are taller that need spacers for the fuel rail and having a heck of a time with the hard starts. Sometimes it catches just barely and then starts, other times I have to open the throttle all the way and peddle it until it starts which is ridiculous.

I've read where you need to play with the Cranking Enrichment IPW Adder (Main) and no matter what settings I choose it's been really hard to determine if they are any better or worse. This is especially true if you flood the engine with fuel and try to test settings with soaked plugs. I know you are supposed to reduce the settings for larger Injectors if you have hard start issues but it doesn't seem to be helping.

Currently I have the following settings with GT30 turbo, Injen Intake, and MDR Fuel Surge Tank kit:

Idle LTFT: +-2%
Cruise LTFT: +-2%

Fuel Injector Scaling: 886

Injector Battery Voltage Latency Compensation:
5.73
5.23
2.49
2.02
1.37
1.01
0.62

Cranking Enrichment IPW Adder (Main):
36
24
12
7.2
5.0
3.6
2.5
1.4
1.4

I've tried stock settings for the cranking enrichment, buschur's settings, lower values, higher values. Everying I do doesn't seem to matter. I'm going to replace the plugs and already replaced all the relay's just in case one was intermittant.

Any suggestions on what is going on would be great or if anyone else is running these injectors and wants to share settings. Currently I am around 11.3 AFR on these with MAP values in the ECU pretty close to actual. Fuel trims seem stable and pretty close to zero so I don't understand what is going on here.

RazorLab

iTrader: (8)

If you have to open the throttle to get it to start then it's probably too rich on start.

Have you tried 0 IPW adder at the ECT it's trying to start at?

I take it you also have an intake tube and larger MAF on this car?

I would try to take out some MAF scaling at the Volts it tries to start at.

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

I'll try all zero's and see where that takes me. I figure starting from the lean side and working richer is better since flooding the engine and having to remove the plus is a pain. It does seem like it is too rich in there as the exhaust pipes smell like fuel slightly. I definitely have spark as I've cranked it with the spark plugs out of the cylinders. This car was always slightly hard to start from day one, now with the bigger injectors it's a total royal pain, just can't depend on it.

This car has an Injen intake, so MAF is 3.0" instead of the 2.75" or so that the stocker is. MAF scaling is stock still as far as I know, I'll play with that as a last resort but you would think that it is leaner from a larger MAF than anything.

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

I need to leave for DC in 1-2 hours and getting desperate here.

Tried various settings, found that the MAF was scaled for the first two sections but not the third that I checked before. Great...

Latest thing I did was pull the Injector Fuse and cranked it... it started up after 3-4 cranks and then died of course because there was no consistant fuel supply but this seems to indicate that it is really really rich with these injectors while cranking the engine. It does seem when you open the throttle that you have a "chance" to get the car to catch, but then at idle the car recently started flagging the car as lean condition in bank 1 and idle trims were at +12.5% last night with cruise at -1.5%.

I've tried leaner scalings and different latencies with no real success.

I'm very close to just going back to stock injectors and reducing boost to WG pressures, this is crazy.

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

Interesting, after cranking til it started and died with the injector relay removed, the EXACT same settings that wouldn't start the car before now fire it up perfect every time.

Could these be leaking serious fuel into the cylinders "pre-flooding" the engine between startups until the rail pressure dies off?

Golden

iTrader: (1)

Yes. Your injectors are leaking after you shut the car off. That fills the intake manifold with fuel and then makes it hard to start.

This is the usual cause of "warm start" issues. It is the main reason why I went to my FIC injectors after reading Mr. Fred's review on this site.


A simple-ish test would be to drive it, unplug your fuel pump, crank it till it won't run / start. Then let it sit for a while. That will take the pressure out of the fuel system. (Tangent: this is how you relieve the pressure on your fuel system when you need to work on it.)
Now if the car starts perfectly fine after sitting for a while, your injectors are 100% leaking while it sits. (Edit: Obviously you've plugged the fuel pump back in for the restart.)

An odd, but silly trick would be to use Tephra Mods with an alt map that has all the injector scalings, latencies and IPW adders set to 0. Instead of shutting the car off, use this map to drain the fuel system when you shut it off, or to run 100% lean while cranking to clear the gas already in the system. Lame fix, but you don't have time.

NZEvox

Have you checked the fuel rail pressure ?

blk-majik

iTrader: (6)

I'm not sure if Chris will be able to reply before he gets home, but it looks like he managed to get the injectors dialed properly (or at least well enough). The car was running well today! He and Paul were both giving it a solid thrashing until the turbo/downpipe bolts worked loose towards the end of the day.

When I left, Chris was letting the car cool down to try to get it fixed up, but they'll probably need to find a new gasket tonight. I'm pretty sure he'll have it back on track tomorrow, but i just hope he manages to get some sleep in the mean time if not, at least maybe you'll be able to catch the F1 race while finishing up

it was nice meeting both of you and good luck tomorrow!

venom911

true

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

We survived the weekend more or less intact. Injectors were a nightmware to dial in trims and I had to just start from scratch. The car starts most of the time but sometimes you have to crank it, then try a second time with the throttle down and it will start up every time at least. Over the next few days I'll be able to adjust things as I daily drive the car and really get it as good as it can be.

I had the car set for 11.0 AFR's by the second day, but the ATP 02 Downpipe backing out the External Wastegate Flange bolts really annoyed me and we lost a session in the morning getting it MIG welded to the main flange. The setup just isn't track durable enough and I'm going to have ATP send me another flange so that we can cut off the old one and TIG weld the sucker on there permanently.

I have some decent track video from outside and inside the car, was running with NASA HPDE 3/4 run groups on the last session. After pushing the car hard for about 7 or 8 laps with no rest, I got to turn 10 and decided "Let's reduce the braking zone even more".

Well I got on the brakes hard and the pedal went to the floor!

This is with Motul 660, Titanium shims, AMS brake ducts, 2 piece rotors, and Raybestos ST43 brake pads on stock Brembo calipers so I guess I was really pushing the car on brakes.

Now THAT can give you that pucker feeling where your heart falls to the ground...

I have in car video and will post what I did to survive the turn entering 30 mph too fast with mushy brakes later tonight.

fostytou

iTrader: (15)

Glad you made it through... I'm curious to see the video. I'm not sure where you welded the dp, but could you have just put a small tac weld on the bolt heads to the flange to keep them from backing out? Not ideal, but seems easier / easier to undo than fully welding the flange.

sideway180sx

iTrader: (4)

Lately i've been having trouble starting my car. It would take quite a few crank to get it started with the throttle to the floor. The car takes a while to start after i ran the car and let it sit for a few hours. I am running the DW1300 cc injectors could it be leaking or not tune probably? The injector is the newer version with the spacers, i had the older one but got it replace due to an internal failure. What do you guys think is going on?

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

The thinner flange was already warping open and the gasket was blown through. Also one of the bolts literally stripped itself out where the threads in the flange and on the bolt were no longer there. Removing it all and welding it from the inside was the only way to get it mostly sealed. That flange is just way way way to thin for any kind of track work. Sure on the street it works great but for the track it has no business being on the car.

Hiboost

iTrader: (9)

I'll know how my car does with the "new" 1300cc injectors as soon as tonight when I pick up my car. I'm hoping this isn't a trend, and if I find a good setup that works well I will report back if it helps. Granted I'll be using a 3.5" turbo inlet pipe and a twin pump walbro fuel surge setup but I'll know pretty quickly if there are going to be problems.

User71421

I had the same injectors in my X. The DW 1000's for the Evo X are apparently notorious for going bad very frequently, and the tuner I worked with had confirmed this.
The hard starts, that was the first problem I had with mine, until a few months later, a few days of bad misfiring and then one of the injectors completely died.

It sounds to me like you're experiencing the beginning of what I went through with my DW 1000's. If possible, do you have a way to test the injectors?

I believe you can ship them to DW, who does a free repair if you purchased them within a year.