3rd Spun bearing on motor in 1 yr!
Feb 2, 2012, 10:10 PM
#61
90blackawdtsi what dont you get? the car rarely ever knocked.. you just dont have a clue how i tune i guess.. i am not the type of tuner who tunes cars and lets them knock after im done tuning them.. i make sure they do not knock after im done with them.. and if they do knock its not gonna be enough to cause any damage.
i got 200+ other evos running like a freight train and i dont see any spinning bearings.. so wtf?
this car had 10deg timing uptop 11.5 afr and maybe 30psi of boost.. it was perfectly fine. (turned down to 28-29 most the time - jack will confirm this)
if you think a tiny detonation is enough to spin a bearing you need to find another hobby.
i got 200+ other evos running like a freight train and i dont see any spinning bearings.. so wtf?
this car had 10deg timing uptop 11.5 afr and maybe 30psi of boost.. it was perfectly fine. (turned down to 28-29 most the time - jack will confirm this)
if you think a tiny detonation is enough to spin a bearing you need to find another hobby.
Last edited by tscompusa; Feb 2, 2012 at 10:14 PM.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:14 PM
#62
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90blackawdtsi what dont you get? the car rarely ever knocked.. you just dont have a clue how i tune i guess.. i am not the type of tuner who tunes cars and lets them knock after im done tuning them.. i make sure they do not knock after im done with them.. and if they do knock its not gonna be enough to cause any damage.
i got 200+ other evos running like a freight train and i dont see any spinning bearings.. so wtf?
this car had 10deg timing uptop 11.5 afr and maybe 30psi of boost.. it was perfectly fine.
if you think a tiny detonation is enough to spin a bearing you need to find another hobby.
i got 200+ other evos running like a freight train and i dont see any spinning bearings.. so wtf?
this car had 10deg timing uptop 11.5 afr and maybe 30psi of boost.. it was perfectly fine.
if you think a tiny detonation is enough to spin a bearing you need to find another hobby.
Not sure if the OP mentioned it but is this on Pump gas?
Feb 2, 2012, 10:21 PM
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Feb 2, 2012, 10:23 PM
#65
yes 93 octane. the tune was pretty conservative.. we could of ran more boost without touching timing as well. reason being, car was running out of injector.. so he just decided to turn boost down instead of getting a bigger injector.
Last edited by tscompusa; Feb 2, 2012 at 10:54 PM.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:27 PM
#66
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Also, some will disagree, but I firmly do not believe in deleting the oil cooler on these cars unless you're monitoring oil temps.
My personal car would quickly heat the oil to ~230 degrees without a cooler after a single pull, and even hotter after multiple pulls, etc.
No cooler+10W30=this thread, IMO.
My personal car would quickly heat the oil to ~230 degrees without a cooler after a single pull, and even hotter after multiple pulls, etc.
No cooler+10W30=this thread, IMO.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:29 PM
#67
not trying to ruffle anyones feathers but the owner admits there was some detonation going on......not saying its the tuners fault,because if its tuned for 30lbs and suddenly its hitting alot more then that...well you know
Last edited by reactionevo8; Feb 2, 2012 at 10:31 PM.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
#68
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same block and manley crank all 3 times? or did buschur use a different block and the same manley crank.
Also, I think I ran into u and ed c at carlisle last spring.
Also, I think I ran into u and ed c at carlisle last spring.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:32 PM
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Feb 2, 2012, 10:34 PM
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I'd be thinking contamination. if you don't know what bearing wear caused from contaminated oil looks like, check some reputable pics. then pull the pan and the rod caps and see what u got on 1-3.
also, was it #4 rod bearing each time?
10* up top (not much) I'd assume ~4 peak... timing moves inversely to cr. boost really doesn't matter much here, timing does more to cylinder pressures.
also, was it #4 rod bearing each time?
10* up top (not much) I'd assume ~4 peak... timing moves inversely to cr. boost really doesn't matter much here, timing does more to cylinder pressures.
Last edited by akauf; Feb 2, 2012 at 11:16 PM.
Feb 2, 2012, 10:52 PM
#72
the car was content with 10deg uptop no knock, stock knock filter table uptop etc.. 30psi~
owner turned the boost down because i seen the injectors were being maxed out and he kept it low for a long time. he never upgraded the fuel system so he was forced to keep boost down.
based on the situation i am 100% positive it wasnt tune related.. (unless it boost creeped everyday he took the car out and detonated - that's nothing i can control)
id imagine to spin a bearing you would need some serious detonation, and that would not be possible with the tune i gave him even if it creeped into high boost.
i think it would blow the head off the engine before spinning a bearing personally.. spinning a bearing due to tune related is rare.. ive never personally seen it. thats why i think that its even being mentioned or even a possibility is pretty absorb.
===
only 2-3deg peak. boost does matter.. to much boost on 93 can cause detonation. you can only do so much with 93, boost, & timing until you effect exhaust gas temps to the point the engine becomes unhappy.
during our tuning session we did see some knock counts, but it never exceeded past 3 counts. for example car would want 9 deg in a area i had 10deg.. 1 deg overshoot is no where near enough on 93oct to hurt the engine. cant say the same for e85 though.. e85 is a whole nother animal.
but just to give an example for others reading this thread and are getting the wrong idea.. in order to cause major damage on 93 you would need to do something like this for example:
say the car only wanted 10 deg uptop but your map had 18 degrees.. and when it tried to run 18deg where it only wanted 10deg you got massive detonation and hit 20+ counts of knock.. <--- that is an example of a catastrophic detonation.. still even in this scenario i dont think it would eat a bearing.. i think it would pop the headgasket or burn the rings to hell and hurt compression..
It was tuned for 0 counts of knock! Every car I tune is tuned that way. If the car doesn't stop knocking then it gets tuned until it does stop. that's part of the tuning process.. 
if i let cars go with detonation id be considered a poor tuner.
i do like that example you gave above though.
id also like to note, that just because you see a log with 1-2 counts of knock doesn't necessarily mean its real detonation.. the knock sensor can pickup false positives and trigger counts without pulling timing.. this is why you use a 2nd reference, the knock sensor voltage to help determine real/false.. there's a lot more then you think to tuning an evo then just looking at knocksum.
owner turned the boost down because i seen the injectors were being maxed out and he kept it low for a long time. he never upgraded the fuel system so he was forced to keep boost down.
based on the situation i am 100% positive it wasnt tune related.. (unless it boost creeped everyday he took the car out and detonated - that's nothing i can control)
id imagine to spin a bearing you would need some serious detonation, and that would not be possible with the tune i gave him even if it creeped into high boost.
i think it would blow the head off the engine before spinning a bearing personally.. spinning a bearing due to tune related is rare.. ive never personally seen it. thats why i think that its even being mentioned or even a possibility is pretty absorb.
===
I'd be thinking contamination. if you don't know what bearing wear caused from contaminated oil looks like, check some reputable pics. then pull the pan and the rod caps and see what u got on 1-3.
also, was it #4 rod bearing each time?
10* up top (not much) I'd assume ~4 peak... timing moves inversely to cr. boost really doesn't matter much here, timing does more to cylinder pressures.
also, was it #4 rod bearing each time?
10* up top (not much) I'd assume ~4 peak... timing moves inversely to cr. boost really doesn't matter much here, timing does more to cylinder pressures.
during our tuning session we did see some knock counts, but it never exceeded past 3 counts. for example car would want 9 deg in a area i had 10deg.. 1 deg overshoot is no where near enough on 93oct to hurt the engine. cant say the same for e85 though.. e85 is a whole nother animal.
but just to give an example for others reading this thread and are getting the wrong idea.. in order to cause major damage on 93 you would need to do something like this for example:
say the car only wanted 10 deg uptop but your map had 18 degrees.. and when it tried to run 18deg where it only wanted 10deg you got massive detonation and hit 20+ counts of knock.. <--- that is an example of a catastrophic detonation.. still even in this scenario i dont think it would eat a bearing.. i think it would pop the headgasket or burn the rings to hell and hurt compression..
Knock can cause premature bearing failure.
Picture this. You have an engine built for a high HP application. Normally this would mean looser than OE specs on the mains, rods and the PTW clearance to name a few.
Since we know that bearing clearances are on the loose side and we run a thin oil in the engine(say 10w-30) you are left with a weak film strength around the journals.
This weak film strength will basically when you get detonation it will disperse off the rod journal.
Lets picture the engine apart. Say you had the piston/rod bolted to the crankshaft. Now hit the top of said piston as hard as you can from the top. The oil that is between the bearing and the journal will be displaced. Kind of like if you tap your foot in a shallow puddle of water the water will be displaced outwards.
Now if you did the same thing but had a thicker oil(20w-50) you would have a stronger film strength surrounding the bearings and it would take more detonation to cause the oil to be dispersed from the journal.
OEM spec motor should be run with a thinner viscosity oil as this yields the greatest film strength.
Looser motors should be run with a higher viscosity oil to yield the greatest film strength.
I suspect the OP's first 2 failures could have been from contamination. The 3rd motor from Buschur would have had looser tolerances and couple that with the thinner 10w-30 then it would not take much detonation to cause bearing failure.
As far as knock is concerned, 2-3 counts is quite a bit for a daily driven car. If you got on the car at least once a day and you constantly saw 2-3 counts of knock then it adds up quick.
A daily driven car should be tuned for 0 knock, none. If it means you have to sacrafice some power so be it. Better safe then sorry.
Picture this. You have an engine built for a high HP application. Normally this would mean looser than OE specs on the mains, rods and the PTW clearance to name a few.
Since we know that bearing clearances are on the loose side and we run a thin oil in the engine(say 10w-30) you are left with a weak film strength around the journals.
This weak film strength will basically when you get detonation it will disperse off the rod journal.
Lets picture the engine apart. Say you had the piston/rod bolted to the crankshaft. Now hit the top of said piston as hard as you can from the top. The oil that is between the bearing and the journal will be displaced. Kind of like if you tap your foot in a shallow puddle of water the water will be displaced outwards.
Now if you did the same thing but had a thicker oil(20w-50) you would have a stronger film strength surrounding the bearings and it would take more detonation to cause the oil to be dispersed from the journal.
OEM spec motor should be run with a thinner viscosity oil as this yields the greatest film strength.
Looser motors should be run with a higher viscosity oil to yield the greatest film strength.
I suspect the OP's first 2 failures could have been from contamination. The 3rd motor from Buschur would have had looser tolerances and couple that with the thinner 10w-30 then it would not take much detonation to cause bearing failure.
As far as knock is concerned, 2-3 counts is quite a bit for a daily driven car. If you got on the car at least once a day and you constantly saw 2-3 counts of knock then it adds up quick.
A daily driven car should be tuned for 0 knock, none. If it means you have to sacrafice some power so be it. Better safe then sorry.
if i let cars go with detonation id be considered a poor tuner.i do like that example you gave above though.
id also like to note, that just because you see a log with 1-2 counts of knock doesn't necessarily mean its real detonation.. the knock sensor can pickup false positives and trigger counts without pulling timing.. this is why you use a 2nd reference, the knock sensor voltage to help determine real/false.. there's a lot more then you think to tuning an evo then just looking at knocksum.
Last edited by tscompusa; Feb 3, 2012 at 01:41 AM.
Feb 2, 2012, 11:13 PM
#73
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100% not the tune.
If Tom's tuning was anywhere near too 'aggressive' for the street, my engine would of bit the dust long ago. In reality, it's making more power SAFER than ever before.
If Tom's tuning was anywhere near too 'aggressive' for the street, my engine would of bit the dust long ago. In reality, it's making more power SAFER than ever before.
Feb 3, 2012, 03:40 AM
#75
NO SUCH WARNING EXISTS IN 2G MANUAL.
All 7 bolt cranks are not nitrided. EVO included. I wouldnt be spending 200$ per crank to have it done if it was already nitrided. Its very easy to test if crank is hardened or not.
Anyone who states 7 bolts cranks were hardened doesnt know what they are talking about. They have never tested one. And they have never had one nitrided. I have nitrided some 30 cranks now. I am quite certain the information I am posting is correct if anyone cares. I also nitride my balance shafts as they benefit from the process as well.
Anyone who wants to argue about it will not get an argument from me. I dont argue with stupid. So if you want to be stupid have at it.