Review of CBRD BBK Full Turbo vs. FP Green
May 22, 2011, 08:19 PM
#1
Review of CBRD BBK Full Turbo vs. FP Green
Back in the day I followed the progression of modified stock turbos as Buschur and others started coming out with them. . . then updating them. . . then updating/improving again . . . etc. On my old EVO 8 I had the stock turbo, then an Evo 9 turbo, then a Buschur 20G, and then finally the Buschur 20G-LT which soon became known as the Forced Performance Evo Green. When I sold the EVO 8 a few years back and decided to build an EVO 9 I kept the Green for the new build. It served me well over the years - Two Solo2 National Championships, 10.9 second quarter mile passes, lots of National Tour and ProSolo wins, etc. In fact it was the only Non-HTA Green on the Fastest Stock Appearing Turbo list for 2010. Anyway, over the past couple years I've been watching the further stock-style turbo advancements just waiting for the perfect turbo to come along. I can gladly say that I believe I have found that "Perfect Turbo" - The CBRD BBK FULL!
MY NEEDS: Everyone has different needs, so the "Perfect Turbo" would be different for every individual. I need a turbo that will excel at autocross, be great at road racing, and be capable of 10 second runs at the drag strip.
Autocross - To excel at autocross the turbo must have near-instantaneous spool, quick boost recovery when off then back on the gas, and make as FAT of powerband as possible.
Road Racing - Turbo should not have excessive lag. A 42R would probably not be fun for very long on a road course
One other "NEED" here is a turbo that is smooth and does not have compressor surge/BOV bucking issues so you can be smooth on throttle inputs. More on this below.
Drag Racing - With a properly set up and driven car you can hit 10's with any of the stock variant turbos. More power just makes it easier to do it consistently or with a less-highly modified car.
RESULTS: The CBRD BBK has been on the car now about 3 weeks and 4000 miles. We ran the 2011 Cannonball One Lap of America race 2 weeks ago. It consisted of 2 drag events, 2 autocross events, and 14 road course events, so I got a pretty good feel for how the turbo is performing. After all that - I am 100% positive that I picked the "Perfect Turbo" available for my needs!
Autocross - Back when the FP Green first came out it was the best turbo choice for autocross, IMHO. Well, the BBK kicks its butt in every category. It spools up faster, has quicker boost recovery, makes a TON more top end power, and has better driveability as far as surging/BOV flutter goes. This thing is full of WIN!
(the Street Mod Solo2 National Champ for 2010 was running the BBK-Full) Back when I had stock gearing the Green seemed to spool up very quickly with almost no lag. After I switched to the HKS 4.11 final drive gear to get more top-end speed in 2nd gear there was a noticeable increase in spool time coming out of tight corners. There was now a slight delay from the time you went full throttle until you got full power. NOT ANY MORE! The BBK Full drives more like a V8 engine. Transient response is awesome! It is also very "linear". It feels like if you give it 25% throttle you get 25% power. Give 75% throttle and you get 75% power. I think it makes the car much more predictible and easier to drive.
Road Racing - to get full power on the Green we had to run higher boost, but the stock BOV would not hold that boost so we had to run a different valve that caused a lot of surging. Undriveable on the road course. The stock valve seems to hold just fine with the BBK so far, so I should be able to run more power with the BBK on the road course than I was able to on the Green. The boost spike is not as high, so it doesn't blow the valve open, but the BBK hold much MORE boost on the top end (tapers much less). With the quicker transient response and the stronger top end the car should be just plain faster all around. I have not run a track yet with the BBK that I've run on before with the Green, so direct comparisons will be forthcoming as I visit my regular tracks later this year. The car so far feels AMAZING.
Drag Racing - I ran a 10.9 with the Green last year. The BBK makes more power all through the powerband with a TON more power up top - so common sense dictates that it should be good for at least a couple more tenths.
MY NEEDS: Everyone has different needs, so the "Perfect Turbo" would be different for every individual. I need a turbo that will excel at autocross, be great at road racing, and be capable of 10 second runs at the drag strip.
Autocross - To excel at autocross the turbo must have near-instantaneous spool, quick boost recovery when off then back on the gas, and make as FAT of powerband as possible.
Road Racing - Turbo should not have excessive lag. A 42R would probably not be fun for very long on a road course
One other "NEED" here is a turbo that is smooth and does not have compressor surge/BOV bucking issues so you can be smooth on throttle inputs. More on this below. Drag Racing - With a properly set up and driven car you can hit 10's with any of the stock variant turbos. More power just makes it easier to do it consistently or with a less-highly modified car.
RESULTS: The CBRD BBK has been on the car now about 3 weeks and 4000 miles. We ran the 2011 Cannonball One Lap of America race 2 weeks ago. It consisted of 2 drag events, 2 autocross events, and 14 road course events, so I got a pretty good feel for how the turbo is performing. After all that - I am 100% positive that I picked the "Perfect Turbo" available for my needs!
Autocross - Back when the FP Green first came out it was the best turbo choice for autocross, IMHO. Well, the BBK kicks its butt in every category. It spools up faster, has quicker boost recovery, makes a TON more top end power, and has better driveability as far as surging/BOV flutter goes. This thing is full of WIN!
(the Street Mod Solo2 National Champ for 2010 was running the BBK-Full) Back when I had stock gearing the Green seemed to spool up very quickly with almost no lag. After I switched to the HKS 4.11 final drive gear to get more top-end speed in 2nd gear there was a noticeable increase in spool time coming out of tight corners. There was now a slight delay from the time you went full throttle until you got full power. NOT ANY MORE! The BBK Full drives more like a V8 engine. Transient response is awesome! It is also very "linear". It feels like if you give it 25% throttle you get 25% power. Give 75% throttle and you get 75% power. I think it makes the car much more predictible and easier to drive. Road Racing - to get full power on the Green we had to run higher boost, but the stock BOV would not hold that boost so we had to run a different valve that caused a lot of surging. Undriveable on the road course. The stock valve seems to hold just fine with the BBK so far, so I should be able to run more power with the BBK on the road course than I was able to on the Green. The boost spike is not as high, so it doesn't blow the valve open, but the BBK hold much MORE boost on the top end (tapers much less). With the quicker transient response and the stronger top end the car should be just plain faster all around. I have not run a track yet with the BBK that I've run on before with the Green, so direct comparisons will be forthcoming as I visit my regular tracks later this year. The car so far feels AMAZING.
Drag Racing - I ran a 10.9 with the Green last year. The BBK makes more power all through the powerband with a TON more power up top - so common sense dictates that it should be good for at least a couple more tenths.
Last edited by EVOlutionary; May 23, 2011 at 09:39 PM.
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TurboIX (Apr 11, 2020)
May 22, 2011, 08:20 PM
#2
more coming. Will post dyno graphs here soon.
Green vs. BBK FULL. The Green spiked to 31.8psi but tapered off to 22psi by 7000rpm. The BBK spiked to 30.7psi and only tapered off to 24.5psi by 7000rpm. The BBK spools up about 200rpm quicker, and at 3300rpm makes about 50ft# more torque than the Green. On "high boost" setting BBK=447whp/438tq while the Green=414whp/432tq.
Pump Gas and E85 @ 25psi spike. This is the "low boost" setting that I am currently using. E85=432whp/386tq and 93oct=382whp/335tq.
Comparison of E85, E75, and E65 on the low boost setting (25psi). Going from 82 to 75 all Keith adjusted was the fuel table with somewhere around 6% less fuel. Going from 75 to 65 he had to tweak the timing a bit as some knock started showing up. At higher boost levels the differences would have been a bit larger. I now have a map for all 3 levels, so it's nice knowing all I have to do is reflash the ECU quickly based on what % of E's I have in the tank and not mess with anything else. . .
E85 = 432whp/386tq
E75 = 427whp/380tq
E65 = 415whp/376tq
Green vs. BBK FULL. The Green spiked to 31.8psi but tapered off to 22psi by 7000rpm. The BBK spiked to 30.7psi and only tapered off to 24.5psi by 7000rpm. The BBK spools up about 200rpm quicker, and at 3300rpm makes about 50ft# more torque than the Green. On "high boost" setting BBK=447whp/438tq while the Green=414whp/432tq.
Pump Gas and E85 @ 25psi spike. This is the "low boost" setting that I am currently using. E85=432whp/386tq and 93oct=382whp/335tq.
Comparison of E85, E75, and E65 on the low boost setting (25psi). Going from 82 to 75 all Keith adjusted was the fuel table with somewhere around 6% less fuel. Going from 75 to 65 he had to tweak the timing a bit as some knock started showing up. At higher boost levels the differences would have been a bit larger. I now have a map for all 3 levels, so it's nice knowing all I have to do is reflash the ECU quickly based on what % of E's I have in the tank and not mess with anything else. . .
E85 = 432whp/386tq
E75 = 427whp/380tq
E65 = 415whp/376tq
Last edited by EVOlutionary; May 23, 2011 at 09:55 PM.
May 23, 2011, 07:18 AM
#6
I am curious which HKS Turbo you are refering to... the 7460R (GTII) or another variant? I have heard a lot of pros and cons dealing with both of these and I would like to know your thoughts. Especially since I believe HKS is in the process of modifying the GTII though I don't have all the details as of yet.
May 23, 2011, 10:28 AM
#7
Evolved Member
I feel the same way about the BBK-Full... I think its the best pump gas turbo available. I will be looking at another turbo when I go to a built 2.3L motor, but maybe BBK-B.
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May 23, 2011, 10:46 AM
#8
I am curious which HKS Turbo you are refering to... the 7460R (GTII) or another variant? I have heard a lot of pros and cons dealing with both of these and I would like to know your thoughts. Especially since I believe HKS is in the process of modifying the GTII though I don't have all the details as of yet.
there was guy on here who had the bbk full and went to the hks. he said the hks made the bbk feel laggy. he was very pleased with the hks. as most are.
May 23, 2011, 01:40 PM
#9
^sounds like the HKS turbo is closer in comparison to the BBK Lite and not the Full. I read the specs on what HKS claims this turbo makes on 93 and was less than impressed. I've ridden in a properly set up BBK Full with cams, and ported stock manifold that was pushing 400hp on a Dyno Dynamics on 93 at about 27psi. which is damn strong. Spool was exactly like stock so if the stock turbo response is laggy to someone then I think they are setting their expectations a bit too high. Sounds like the BBK lite would match the HKS in terms of spool and power output and come in at $600-$800 cheaper at least compared to what HKS website says. Just my $.02
May 23, 2011, 03:20 PM
#10
^sounds like the HKS turbo is closer in comparison to the BBK Lite and not the Full. I read the specs on what HKS claims this turbo makes on 93 and was less than impressed. I've ridden in a properly set up BBK Full with cams, and ported stock manifold that was pushing 400hp on a Dyno Dynamics on 93 at about 27psi. which is damn strong. Spool was exactly like stock so if the stock turbo response is laggy to someone then I think they are setting their expectations a bit too high. Sounds like the BBK lite would match the HKS in terms of spool and power output and come in at $600-$800 cheaper at least compared to what HKS website says. Just my $.02
May 23, 2011, 03:30 PM
#11
Evolved Member
I find it particularly interesting considering the A) well documented surging problems people have had with the HKS 7460R and the B) lower peak numbers achieved thus far.
Not to mention this thread is BBK Full vs. FP Green...
May 23, 2011, 03:33 PM
#12
^sounds like the HKS turbo is closer in comparison to the BBK Lite and not the Full. I read the specs on what HKS claims this turbo makes on 93 and was less than impressed. I've ridden in a properly set up BBK Full with cams, and ported stock manifold that was pushing 400hp on a Dyno Dynamics on 93 at about 27psi. which is damn strong. Spool was exactly like stock so if the stock turbo response is laggy to someone then I think they are setting their expectations a bit too high. Sounds like the BBK lite would match the HKS in terms of spool and power output and come in at $600-$800 cheaper at least compared to what HKS website says. Just my $.02
May 23, 2011, 04:05 PM
#13
Subscribed.
Oh and - +1 on the HKS GTII7460 being what you're looking for... We recently fitted one and that thing is amazing. I'd fit it to my own car but I'm going to be playing around with MoTeC antilag and destroying E9 turbos is cheaper, but if that wasn't my plan, I'd 10000% sure be running an HKS.
Oh and - +1 on the HKS GTII7460 being what you're looking for... We recently fitted one and that thing is amazing. I'd fit it to my own car but I'm going to be playing around with MoTeC antilag and destroying E9 turbos is cheaper, but if that wasn't my plan, I'd 10000% sure be running an HKS.
Last edited by Toxin; May 23, 2011 at 04:16 PM.
May 23, 2011, 05:17 PM
#14
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The HKS turbo does make the BBK full feel super laggy and unresponsive. I DD my Evo with the HKS turbo and I have a close friend who i drive his car now and again he has a BBK full on it.
May 23, 2011, 05:19 PM
#15
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The only person that could speak with experience would be someone who has run both BBK-Full and the HKS turbo. Presumably you have an HKS turbo, which is great... but have you ever used a BBK-Full? If not ...you sure know all about it for not having any experience with it. Especially considering you say that the OP is "halfway to a decent turbo".
I find it particularly interesting considering the A) well documented surging problems people have had with the HKS 7460R and the B) lower peak numbers achieved thus far.
Not to mention this thread is BBK Full vs. FP Green...
I find it particularly interesting considering the A) well documented surging problems people have had with the HKS 7460R and the B) lower peak numbers achieved thus far.
Not to mention this thread is BBK Full vs. FP Green...