Bad Bish, episode XXX, picture and new build thread
Feb 1, 2011, 07:24 AM
#1
Bad Bish, episode XXX, picture and new build thread
This project never seems to end and I hope it never does. The day a project is finished I get bored and then it goes up for sale. I don't intend to ever sell this one!
I left off in the fall building a high RPM, long rod 2 liter for the car. The peak horsepower from that engine was as good as any I've ever tried but the torque was really down from the 2.1 liter I had been running previously. The quest for the 8's went further into what I'd consider a "race car" than I ever wanted it to. I had Shepherd build me a dogbox for the car and we gave it our best shot. We only ran 9.3's at 158.xx mph, traction was EXTREMELY limited and killed us.
I just wasn't happy with the torque. After careful study of the dyno graphs and logs it really didn't make a lot of sense. The one problem I had was the clutch was slipping. At first it seemed like wheel spin but the logs revealed otherwise. The clutch was changed to a new Exedy Triple cerametalic HD unit and some of the missing low/mid range I was looking for came back, but not all of it. Viewing the logs very carefully I could still see there was a slight amount of clutch slippage. Winter set in here and the car was sitting. My mind wandered back to Project White and how much I loved how that car came out. I then thought about all the strokers we've built here and how the best feeling EVO's we turn out always seem to have our stroker in them. I was then contacted by Curt Brown about his EVO9 and we got to discussing what both of us wanted to do with our EVO's and what I thought the next thing to do was. It was decided I'd build a high RPM stroker for both of us.
First thing was to order up some parts to get started. I use a lot of JE and Manley parts in our builds. I chose JE pistons because we already had a new custom part built for the 2 liter long rod that would drop right into this stroker. The piston weight came in at only 288 grams. You can not fit an aluminum rod in a stroker without ruining the integrity of the block and then it's questionable. I decided to go with Manley rods and ended up with a 680 gram rod. I've had very good luck with the stock Mitsubishi cranks in the strokers we build, exceptional actually. I've seen a hair line crack develop in one high horsepower build we did that was subjected to higher RPM too but that's about the extent of damage. I chose though to use Manley's billet stroker crank. The crank is beautifully knife edged and comes in at only 33.5 pounds. The stock 2.4 liter crank weighs 35.5 pounds and a 2 liter stock crank for comparison is 31.5 pounds. This is a hell of a nice savings when you are going to really try to push the limits of the RPM.
Here's a few pictures of the shortblock for my car going together:
After I decided what it was I wanted to build I thought I'd pick the brains of a few guys I trusted. I wanted to see what was already done and what I may expect so I called Tony Palo and Kevin "Kiggly" Kwiatkoski. Tony runs a Honda, I asked him about his rod ratio and the RPM's he has run with the engine. I also said I wouldn't disclose anything he told me but the RPM vs rod ratio a Honda engine runs was a real eye opener! Holy ****! Also Kevin gave me some insight to what he's seen. He's gone 167 mph with a stroker in his FWD DSM and run his engine to 9500 rpm. The biggest issue has just been oiling and it seems we've done many of the same things over the years to address the issue. Very helpful guy and I appreciate him taking the time to exchange e-mails with me.
Here's some quick rod ratio data on various engines:
A stock Integra engine has a rod ratio of 1.58 for reference.
A stock 2 liter 4g63 has a ratio of 1.70
A LR 2 liter has a ratio of 1.77
A 2.1 has a ratio of 1.77
A 2.3 stroker has a ratio of 1.49
A 2.4 has a ratio of 1.49
A LR 2.4 has a ratio of 1.55
The piston speed really gets up there quick with a stroker or 2.4. For comparison at 10,800 rpm in a standard 2 liter build the pistons speed is basically the same as a stroker at 9500 rpm.
I've got multiple guys out there going to 9000-9200 rpm with our normal stroker builds and they've been together for years, so I'm pretty excited to see what these new engines do with the lighter rotating assemblies and a few other tricks we did.
I did put a crank scraper in the block and of course I'm using our modified stock oil pan with the baffling in it.
My engine has been in and out of my car, no-telling-how-many-times over the years. A lot of the bolts and such were getting worn and nasty. I decided to replace every single bolt on the entire engine and start with a fresh clean cylinder head. It leaves the engine looking nice and nice dent in your wallet too. Here's a picture of our Stage 3 head before it was bolted on:
While I was at it I wanted to change some other parts on the car. I swapped out the EVO8 RS headlights for a set of the EVO9 RS lights, which are blacked out from the factory:
Random shot of the front of the car and another change that made. A set of Volk CE28N's in bronze. 17x9's with a +35 with RE01 245-45-17's. That combo weighs in at 43#'s per wheel, not the lightest I've run but not the heaviest either. :
The new high RPM stroker back at home:
As you will notice I'm running the ported stock JDM intake manifold on the car. We have some of these JDM intakes here if anyone is interested in a much nicer/cleaner install than the stock USDM EVO8-9 intake manifold. The reason for this change is our Fabricated intake manifold is going to be built by Shearer Fabrications and he will be using mine as the fixture to build them from. It will also make for an interested dyno test putting our Fabricated intake on a stroker for a back-to-back test. It was good for nearly 60 whp on my 2.1.
I'm always looking for all the weight I can save so I added the Torque Solution side engine mount. This dropped 2.4 pounds off just one single engine mount and it looks better!
Then I finally found a set of nice EVO9 seats! Thank you Curt Brown!!
This is a final picture of the "stereo" all installed in my car. For those of you that missed it, there's a Pyle amp behind that factory RS block off plate. Down below you can see the port for my iphone to plug into and the on/off switch for the amp. Above in the vent I have a holder for my phone, I really couldn't be more impressed with that entire set-up. It's the best sound system I've had in the car yet and it's the lightest and leaves the car looking like a stock RS!
I also pulled our bullet muffler out of the center of the car and replaced it with the new slim Magnaflow. This combined with the SD in the rear, I believe is the best sounding system we offer. It's not the quietest but it is sweet music to listen to. It is quieter than the bullet/SD that I had.
So that's it. The next chapter of the car has started. I want to get some street miles on the car and get the clutch to fully bed in before dyno'ing it. Right now we have a ton of snow and the roads are covered in salt, I won't drive the car when it's like this.
I left the stock final drive in the car, I still have the desire to see the car run an 8 second pass and with Mickey Thompson releasing their new 17" slick this year I'll be giving it another try. I believe this engine is capable of doing it as far as the RPM goes and with the stroker the car is going to be a hell of a lot better than it was (and it was darn good before) on the autocross course.
I left off in the fall building a high RPM, long rod 2 liter for the car. The peak horsepower from that engine was as good as any I've ever tried but the torque was really down from the 2.1 liter I had been running previously. The quest for the 8's went further into what I'd consider a "race car" than I ever wanted it to. I had Shepherd build me a dogbox for the car and we gave it our best shot. We only ran 9.3's at 158.xx mph, traction was EXTREMELY limited and killed us.
I just wasn't happy with the torque. After careful study of the dyno graphs and logs it really didn't make a lot of sense. The one problem I had was the clutch was slipping. At first it seemed like wheel spin but the logs revealed otherwise. The clutch was changed to a new Exedy Triple cerametalic HD unit and some of the missing low/mid range I was looking for came back, but not all of it. Viewing the logs very carefully I could still see there was a slight amount of clutch slippage. Winter set in here and the car was sitting. My mind wandered back to Project White and how much I loved how that car came out. I then thought about all the strokers we've built here and how the best feeling EVO's we turn out always seem to have our stroker in them. I was then contacted by Curt Brown about his EVO9 and we got to discussing what both of us wanted to do with our EVO's and what I thought the next thing to do was. It was decided I'd build a high RPM stroker for both of us.
First thing was to order up some parts to get started. I use a lot of JE and Manley parts in our builds. I chose JE pistons because we already had a new custom part built for the 2 liter long rod that would drop right into this stroker. The piston weight came in at only 288 grams. You can not fit an aluminum rod in a stroker without ruining the integrity of the block and then it's questionable. I decided to go with Manley rods and ended up with a 680 gram rod. I've had very good luck with the stock Mitsubishi cranks in the strokers we build, exceptional actually. I've seen a hair line crack develop in one high horsepower build we did that was subjected to higher RPM too but that's about the extent of damage. I chose though to use Manley's billet stroker crank. The crank is beautifully knife edged and comes in at only 33.5 pounds. The stock 2.4 liter crank weighs 35.5 pounds and a 2 liter stock crank for comparison is 31.5 pounds. This is a hell of a nice savings when you are going to really try to push the limits of the RPM.
Here's a few pictures of the shortblock for my car going together:
After I decided what it was I wanted to build I thought I'd pick the brains of a few guys I trusted. I wanted to see what was already done and what I may expect so I called Tony Palo and Kevin "Kiggly" Kwiatkoski. Tony runs a Honda, I asked him about his rod ratio and the RPM's he has run with the engine. I also said I wouldn't disclose anything he told me but the RPM vs rod ratio a Honda engine runs was a real eye opener! Holy ****! Also Kevin gave me some insight to what he's seen. He's gone 167 mph with a stroker in his FWD DSM and run his engine to 9500 rpm. The biggest issue has just been oiling and it seems we've done many of the same things over the years to address the issue. Very helpful guy and I appreciate him taking the time to exchange e-mails with me.
Here's some quick rod ratio data on various engines:
A stock Integra engine has a rod ratio of 1.58 for reference.
A stock 2 liter 4g63 has a ratio of 1.70
A LR 2 liter has a ratio of 1.77
A 2.1 has a ratio of 1.77
A 2.3 stroker has a ratio of 1.49
A 2.4 has a ratio of 1.49
A LR 2.4 has a ratio of 1.55
The piston speed really gets up there quick with a stroker or 2.4. For comparison at 10,800 rpm in a standard 2 liter build the pistons speed is basically the same as a stroker at 9500 rpm.
I've got multiple guys out there going to 9000-9200 rpm with our normal stroker builds and they've been together for years, so I'm pretty excited to see what these new engines do with the lighter rotating assemblies and a few other tricks we did.
I did put a crank scraper in the block and of course I'm using our modified stock oil pan with the baffling in it.
My engine has been in and out of my car, no-telling-how-many-times over the years. A lot of the bolts and such were getting worn and nasty. I decided to replace every single bolt on the entire engine and start with a fresh clean cylinder head. It leaves the engine looking nice and nice dent in your wallet too. Here's a picture of our Stage 3 head before it was bolted on:
While I was at it I wanted to change some other parts on the car. I swapped out the EVO8 RS headlights for a set of the EVO9 RS lights, which are blacked out from the factory:
Random shot of the front of the car and another change that made. A set of Volk CE28N's in bronze. 17x9's with a +35 with RE01 245-45-17's. That combo weighs in at 43#'s per wheel, not the lightest I've run but not the heaviest either. :
The new high RPM stroker back at home:
As you will notice I'm running the ported stock JDM intake manifold on the car. We have some of these JDM intakes here if anyone is interested in a much nicer/cleaner install than the stock USDM EVO8-9 intake manifold. The reason for this change is our Fabricated intake manifold is going to be built by Shearer Fabrications and he will be using mine as the fixture to build them from. It will also make for an interested dyno test putting our Fabricated intake on a stroker for a back-to-back test. It was good for nearly 60 whp on my 2.1.
I'm always looking for all the weight I can save so I added the Torque Solution side engine mount. This dropped 2.4 pounds off just one single engine mount and it looks better!
Then I finally found a set of nice EVO9 seats! Thank you Curt Brown!!
This is a final picture of the "stereo" all installed in my car. For those of you that missed it, there's a Pyle amp behind that factory RS block off plate. Down below you can see the port for my iphone to plug into and the on/off switch for the amp. Above in the vent I have a holder for my phone, I really couldn't be more impressed with that entire set-up. It's the best sound system I've had in the car yet and it's the lightest and leaves the car looking like a stock RS!
I also pulled our bullet muffler out of the center of the car and replaced it with the new slim Magnaflow. This combined with the SD in the rear, I believe is the best sounding system we offer. It's not the quietest but it is sweet music to listen to. It is quieter than the bullet/SD that I had.
So that's it. The next chapter of the car has started. I want to get some street miles on the car and get the clutch to fully bed in before dyno'ing it. Right now we have a ton of snow and the roads are covered in salt, I won't drive the car when it's like this.
I left the stock final drive in the car, I still have the desire to see the car run an 8 second pass and with Mickey Thompson releasing their new 17" slick this year I'll be giving it another try. I believe this engine is capable of doing it as far as the RPM goes and with the stroker the car is going to be a hell of a lot better than it was (and it was darn good before) on the autocross course.
Feb 1, 2011, 07:52 AM
#2
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beautiful work as always.
that is some very interesting info regarding the rod ratios, especially having just come from playing with some high strung non turbo honda motors.
that is some very interesting info regarding the rod ratios, especially having just come from playing with some high strung non turbo honda motors.
Feb 1, 2011, 08:28 AM
#7
Hi David,
Great write up!Bad Bish is looking ace!
It interests me to read about your experience with the LR2.0L as I've currently having one built in search for revs and a broad power band
Quick few questions - what made you opt for the Manley rods? I assume at 680grams they are the Turbo Tuff Ibeams, what length? Why didn't you want to go for alloy rods?
Trying to keep rotating mass down (and strenght up) I opted for R&R racings billet ibeams with 625 bolts.
Should be a good compromise between strength and weight hopefully without risking it for a biscuit with alloy rods.
It's interesting to hear your thoughts about the oem crank too. Here's the underside of my short block:
Similar
Great write up!Bad Bish is looking ace!
It interests me to read about your experience with the LR2.0L as I've currently having one built in search for revs and a broad power band
Quick few questions - what made you opt for the Manley rods? I assume at 680grams they are the Turbo Tuff Ibeams, what length? Why didn't you want to go for alloy rods?
Trying to keep rotating mass down (and strenght up) I opted for R&R racings billet ibeams with 625 bolts.
Should be a good compromise between strength and weight hopefully without risking it for a biscuit with alloy rods.
It's interesting to hear your thoughts about the oem crank too. Here's the underside of my short block:
Similar
Last edited by Kins; Feb 1, 2011 at 08:33 AM.
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Feb 1, 2011, 08:36 AM
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Hi David,
Great write up!Bad Bish is looking ace!
It interests me to read about your experience with the LR2.0L as I've currently having one built in search for revs and a broad power band
Quick few questions - what made you opt for the Manley rods? I assume at 680grams they are the Turbo Tuff Ibeams, what length? Why didn't you want to go for alloy rods?
Great write up!Bad Bish is looking ace!
It interests me to read about your experience with the LR2.0L as I've currently having one built in search for revs and a broad power band
Quick few questions - what made you opt for the Manley rods? I assume at 680grams they are the Turbo Tuff Ibeams, what length? Why didn't you want to go for alloy rods?
DB - You can not fit an aluminum rod in a stroker without ruining the integrity of the block and then it's questionable.
Feb 1, 2011, 08:51 AM
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all of this for torque. torque wins races right.
curious to see comparisons to the last set up.
What is your hypothesis for this set up? broader power curve. Moar torque. keeping it in 4th to make your 8 second pass?
curious to see comparisons to the last set up.
What is your hypothesis for this set up? broader power curve. Moar torque. keeping it in 4th to make your 8 second pass?
Feb 1, 2011, 09:29 AM
#15
I've never used R&R rods, at this point I see no reason to swap and try something new. I know the Manleys will take anything I throw at them, so I'll take the 60 grams of weight.
A custom aluminum rod would be an option but I don't believe it would be strong enough with the material that would need to be removed to make it fit properly. Rather than risk it being too weak and breaking I went with what I know will hold up.
Yes, still running the custom header I built and the HTA86.
The Fabricated intake is not a Shearer intake manifold. He is simply going to be cutting/assembling/welding our parts/design together for us.
The thought behind this build is simply torque, as much of it as I can get without giving up any top end power. I'd really like to see 600 ft lbs on our dyno but that may not be possible. The car is always kept in 4th and will be with this engine too for the top end of the 1/4 mile.
A custom aluminum rod would be an option but I don't believe it would be strong enough with the material that would need to be removed to make it fit properly. Rather than risk it being too weak and breaking I went with what I know will hold up.
Yes, still running the custom header I built and the HTA86.
The Fabricated intake is not a Shearer intake manifold. He is simply going to be cutting/assembling/welding our parts/design together for us.
The thought behind this build is simply torque, as much of it as I can get without giving up any top end power. I'd really like to see 600 ft lbs on our dyno but that may not be possible. The car is always kept in 4th and will be with this engine too for the top end of the 1/4 mile.