50k miles of alcohol injection and no cracked pistons! Cheap alky kits exposed.
Sep 29, 2010, 11:28 AM
#258
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Rockford, IL
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is another video showing spray with solenoid control:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Djiqpc1WS4
Here is video showing bleed off when using a check valve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXK7...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Djiqpc1WS4
Here is video showing bleed off when using a check valve:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXK7...eature=related
Sep 29, 2010, 01:49 PM
#259
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: England
Posts: 2,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Labonte,
Only if the video was posted earlier, it would have saved a great deal of bandwidth. Anyway, better late than never.
Can you tell me the duration of the dribble/run-on by counting video frames. I think 0.4 to 1 sec is not far off.
Only if the video was posted earlier, it would have saved a great deal of bandwidth. Anyway, better late than never.
Can you tell me the duration of the dribble/run-on by counting video frames. I think 0.4 to 1 sec is not far off.
Last edited by Richard L; Sep 29, 2010 at 02:10 PM.
Oct 2, 2010, 03:30 AM
#260
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: England
Posts: 2,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It appears that thing has quieten down and may be a good time to reflect on the posts and contributions from various source. The topic of dribble or bleed down may be a possible reason why no1 piston is the first to go, according the Mike of AWD.
Here are some comments posted so far:
Here are some comments posted so far:
A gear shift takes between 0.2 seconds to 0.6 seconds when you are racing. Normal DD driving may be doubled or trippled. This is the period when the dribble becomes a nuisance. Boost drops and fuel flow drop. The engine continues to ingest air through the throttle by-pass route.
The un-metered meths from dribbling will be drawn into the engine and causes some unpredictable combustion. In some serious cases, it will cause pre-ignition for the next intake/compression cycle, especially on cylinder one. Less serious conditions will just be a few pops and bangs. Sound a bit like the anti-lag system used on on rally cars.
Looking at the video page 1, the 16-feet tubing, bleed-down took about 2-3 seconds and 2-feet tubing about 0.5 to 1 second. These are only estimates - you can time it yourself. Using a bigger nozzle will only shorten the bleed-down duration but the dribble quanity will be the same.
I will post a log chart for a 0-130mph run at WOT. You can see the gaps. Unfortunately I don't have a time stamp on the log.
The un-metered meths from dribbling will be drawn into the engine and causes some unpredictable combustion. In some serious cases, it will cause pre-ignition for the next intake/compression cycle, especially on cylinder one. Less serious conditions will just be a few pops and bangs. Sound a bit like the anti-lag system used on on rally cars.
Looking at the video page 1, the 16-feet tubing, bleed-down took about 2-3 seconds and 2-feet tubing about 0.5 to 1 second. These are only estimates - you can time it yourself. Using a bigger nozzle will only shorten the bleed-down duration but the dribble quanity will be the same.
I will post a log chart for a 0-130mph run at WOT. You can see the gaps. Unfortunately I don't have a time stamp on the log.
I believe anything resulted in parts flying through the hood or block, or breaking off is from preignition. The knock sensor might say 1 count, but that one count is from the sound of breaking a rod in half.
Too many factors to conclude the cause of these former events with the available data. All we can say is too much tune for the cyl that went.
For exp:
1 and 4 cyl will see end gas reversion 1st typically from the larger scroll runner volume (esp 1). cyl 4 might be the 1st to heat up from excess egr flow, but cyl 1 probably takes on the most PVC oil (oil has an equivalent octane of about like... zero!) Even a single spark plug not torqued down to spec can cause preignition.
Too many factors to conclude the cause of these former events with the available data. All we can say is too much tune for the cyl that went.
For exp:
1 and 4 cyl will see end gas reversion 1st typically from the larger scroll runner volume (esp 1). cyl 4 might be the 1st to heat up from excess egr flow, but cyl 1 probably takes on the most PVC oil (oil has an equivalent octane of about like... zero!) Even a single spark plug not torqued down to spec can cause preignition.
I tend to agree in most parts, especially the frame reversal. I really am not aware of cylinder #1 & cylinder #4 is prone to this, especially with all those race cam profiles. Learning something new today, thank you.
The bit I have some doubt is, why cylinder #1 & 2? Is it due to the residual meth migrating their way into those cylinders during lift off periods? This is before some bits broken off. One ring land goes, oil induced knock just takes over.
Engine mangement will not be looking for pre-ignition (wrong window) nor able to do anything about it.
The bit I have some doubt is, why cylinder #1 & 2? Is it due to the residual meth migrating their way into those cylinders during lift off periods? This is before some bits broken off. One ring land goes, oil induced knock just takes over.
Engine mangement will not be looking for pre-ignition (wrong window) nor able to do anything about it.
Some real world date on dribble.
I ran some alkycontrol kits that I installed. I kept the line from pump to nozzle as short as possible. Less than 20 inches for sure and maybe closer to about 14 inches. I would mount pump as close to I/C outlet as i could get it. And install nozzle at about 6 inches past the I/C out. Before BOV. This minimizes dribble as the whole line itself has to de-pressurize when pump shuts off. I also wanted max time in pipes for alky cooling to do its job.
I would do hard pulls and be stopped immediately at traffic lights. A/F at idle would be ~11.0. it would take 30-45 seconds to reach 14.7. very clear this was the dribble and wall wetting airing out in pipes and intake.
I dont have any data on how much is dribble and how much is wall wetting. I never ran any PWM sytems like aquamist. Would like to hear if anyone has similar observations to what I was seeing.
I ran some alkycontrol kits that I installed. I kept the line from pump to nozzle as short as possible. Less than 20 inches for sure and maybe closer to about 14 inches. I would mount pump as close to I/C outlet as i could get it. And install nozzle at about 6 inches past the I/C out. Before BOV. This minimizes dribble as the whole line itself has to de-pressurize when pump shuts off. I also wanted max time in pipes for alky cooling to do its job.
I would do hard pulls and be stopped immediately at traffic lights. A/F at idle would be ~11.0. it would take 30-45 seconds to reach 14.7. very clear this was the dribble and wall wetting airing out in pipes and intake.
I dont have any data on how much is dribble and how much is wall wetting. I never ran any PWM sytems like aquamist. Would like to hear if anyone has similar observations to what I was seeing.
Oct 2, 2010, 03:55 AM
#261
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: England
Posts: 2,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other possibility of crack piston was mentioned about overall bad spray distribiton during spray. The video below may caused some doubt to this theory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK05--ci2XY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK05--ci2XY
Oct 3, 2010, 03:22 AM
#263
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: England
Posts: 2,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The purpose of the video can be read in greater details here.
My purpose was to show how turbulent the mist distribution during a full power run. I am trying to rule out the some of the myths holding WMI system responsible for blowing engines up particularly cylinder #1.
My theory was the piston #1 damage could be caused by pre-ignition by the residual meth duirng thottle-off period. It is just a thought but would like to heard from others if this theory is probable or plausible.
My purpose was to show how turbulent the mist distribution during a full power run. I am trying to rule out the some of the myths holding WMI system responsible for blowing engines up particularly cylinder #1.
My theory was the piston #1 damage could be caused by pre-ignition by the residual meth duirng thottle-off period. It is just a thought but would like to heard from others if this theory is probable or plausible.
Last edited by Richard L; Oct 3, 2010 at 04:43 AM.
Jan 16, 2011, 05:31 AM
#265
Evolved Member
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal :)
Posts: 2,636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have close to 57K miles on my Evo and more than 20K miles on my Labonte kit. No problems here 
....I have had ZERO issues with my setup and use the ZT2 and Tephra mod as my failsafes.
....I have had ZERO issues with my setup and use the ZT2 and Tephra mod as my failsafes.
Feb 22, 2011, 12:29 PM
#267
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: England
Posts: 2,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to awake the dead...
I have stumbled on a log of a PPS system with checkvalve:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11238
And a log of a PWM valve system:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492250
This is real!!!
I have stumbled on a log of a PPS system with checkvalve:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11238
And a log of a PWM valve system:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=492250
This is real!!!
Jun 23, 2012, 08:40 AM
#268
Evolving Member
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but can someone post a list of which systems actually use progressive pumps other than Labonte kit and Aquamist? Thanks!
Jun 23, 2012, 10:31 AM
#269
Evolved Member
now im curious since youve had about 50k on your alcohol injection any signs of corrosion or excessive buildup on any of the internal parts, maybe not so much with people using alcohol, as apose to those using methanol injection which is much more corrosive? Now in that 50k of usage, how often do you have to refill your alcohol tank? what size quart reservoir do you have? How much does it usually cost to refill? See I ask because im at the point where eventually i can do a pump/race gas tune, but at the availability of e85 stations in my area, its 10 miles one way to get it, now ive had a few friends runs meth or alcohol injection setups, that have made good numbers even on 91 octane. Just trying to gain an understanding of which way i should go to safely make more power, while e85 isnt as corrosive, you do run into issues with the infamous black gunk eventually, lower gas mileage and having to fill up at the only places that carry it. Whereas with alcohol injection, you just fill up that tank when its low, and can keep filling up pump gas.
Jun 23, 2012, 03:30 PM
#270
Evolving Member
"Progressive pump" is a "PPS" system (progressive pump system).
PWM means the flow is controlled by a pulse-width-modulated valve out near the nozzle. I think Aquamist is the only one.
PPS means the pump speed is controlled up and down to vary the flow. I'm not up to date on some of these systems, but last I knew, Labonte and Coolingmist had added electric solenoid valves, which do not modulate the flow, but they do give it a hard shut-off to reduce "dribble".
One way to read about this is to do an evom forum advanced search on "user name" Richard L, "key word" pwm, "show results as" posts.
On my soap box now, I do think these water-meth injection systems are still a good idea for some people. We don't have E85 where I live and we might not ever have it. If the weather keeps going the way it has been, we will need our agricultural land to grow food, not for ethanol fuel production. Take a look:
[IMG]
[/IMG]