COP with stock ECU, DSM Ignitor and 300m Coils

**joedr** · Dec 24, 2008, 09:47 AM

All,

I tried to wire the 300m coils with the DSM Ignitor in order to do a custom COP and am running into misfiring issues.

The parts I used:

4 300m Coils
4 Pigtails from 300m or Supra
1 DSM Ignitor

So far, I can start the car but it is misfiring around 4500-5500 RPMs. During that RPM range, I can see a sudden drop in AFR (10.8 AFR when usually 11.3-11.4 is the target) and then after peak TQ.... AFR seems to go back to normal.

I am thinking a wiring problem and was wondering if you guys can point me to the right direction.

1. What is the polarity of the 300m coils? On the pigtails, the wiring is green on top and white/red on the bottom. However, I searched the internet and there is a debate for their polarity.

2. I wired every pair of coils in series.

Switched 12VDC from Wire Harness -> Coil 1 bottom pin
Coil 1 top pin -> Coil 4 bottom pin
Coil 4 top pin -> OC1 in Ignitor

Similar wiring for Coils 2 and 3.

Should I wire them in parallel? Did I use the right polarity?

Note: I am preparing a wiring diagram and will post that as soon as I verify that the wiring is correct. So far, I am not sure if what I have done is the correct way!

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

**joedr** · Dec 24, 2008, 11:10 AM

Here are some pics of the COP and Ignitor placement.

JohnBradley · Dec 24, 2008, 01:21 PM

Joed,

Possibly because of not having a CDI box its losing ignition energy?

**joedr** · Dec 24, 2008, 01:25 PM

Makes sense JB!

I tried the HKS DLI2 but it was not running well. I think that the DLI is not compatible with the DSM ignitor.

I saw a post of yours a while back..... I think that you were using a COP with stock ECU. What ignition box you were using?

Also... does bringing the COPs to a parallel setup improve the energy? I know that it will improve the improve the current.

**joedr** · Dec 24, 2008, 07:01 PM

BTW, I am running .022 gap on the sparks which is what I was using with the DLI2 and stock coils.

wspy · Dec 25, 2008, 10:05 AM

Check This!

Separate Ignitor/Coil system working on stock ECU :)

Paul Nelson · Dec 25, 2008, 10:16 AM

Ive ran this same setup up to 48 psi and about 924 whp on the dyno. Did really well. 48 psi we had the gap down to 18

Here is my old video. We had this same setup on except we ran dsm coils

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZGriOvzaOE

**joedr** · Dec 25, 2008, 11:07 AM

Paul,

Did you have a coil per cylinder? If so, how did you wire them to the ignitor? In series or parallel?

wspy,

I was following that thread as a guide and decided to open this one because of the misfiring issues. It seems that it is misfiring even with low loads. Just replaced the ignitor (Got two) to see if the ignitor is bad.

So far, every pair is wired in series.

RunThat · Dec 25, 2008, 03:55 PM

Bump for answer from Paul. I'd LOVE to do this

JohnBradley · Dec 25, 2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joedr

Makes sense JB!

I tried the HKS DLI2 but it was not running well. I think that the DLI is not compatible with the DSM ignitor.

I saw a post of yours a while back..... I think that you were using a COP with stock ECU. What ignition box you were using?

Also... does bringing the COPs to a parallel setup improve the energy? I know that it will improve the improve the current.

I am using an old prototype COP that TTP had devised. It uses a MSD DIS box for the CDI and I currently have it set up in wasted spark to work with the stock ECU. I am not quite sure the difference between wiring it parallel vs series. If you mean wasted vs individual, I have tried running my car without the CDI and it will not run. I can get it to run on 4 cylinders at idle and then it drops to 2, and most of the time (when I was experimenting) it would just idle on 2.

It is going to be swapped out for a SparkTech with the new engine build because of the age of the box and my inherent bad luck with MSD. I dont want any ignition issues at 40psi. I am not sure about Paul's setup carrying over since the car was on an AEM. It was using twin 1G coils and didnt have issues when it was at the 900whp level. It did work well at the time though.

TTP Engineering · Dec 26, 2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBradley

I am using an old prototype COP that TTP had devised. It uses a MSD DIS box for the CDI and I currently have it set up in wasted spark to work with the stock ECU. I am not quite sure the difference between wiring it parallel vs series. If you mean wasted vs individual, I have tried running my car without the CDI and it will not run. I can get it to run on 4 cylinders at idle and then it drops to 2, and most of the time (when I was experimenting) it would just idle on 2.

It is going to be swapped out for a SparkTech with the new engine build because of the age of the box and my inherent bad luck with MSD. I dont want any ignition issues at 40psi. I am not sure about Paul's setup carrying over since the car was on an AEM. It was using twin 1G coils and didnt have issues when it was at the 900whp level. It did work well at the time though.

joedr is also using some of our spare coil on plug parts. Thanks for the input Aaron.

Broxma · Dec 26, 2008, 11:23 PM

So I was thinking about this setup today and had a few thoughts. Everyone knows running in series you drop voltage and running in parallel you drop current. Also Series increases resistance and parallel drops it. Neither of these is ideal for running a true COP system.

I assume that it is running wastespark so there are two coils wired in series. Increase resistance across the system and a drop in the voltage at each coil. No bueno.

In parallel your cutting the current. I actually think of the two, parallel might be better, but I'd do it another way.

The input from the factory harness to trigger the coil is effectively a low voltage switch. It doesn't need a huge amount of power since the 12v will be coming direct from the ignitor. So I'd just run a dual ignitor setup with both ignitors triggering 2 coils.

Like this.

That way, you have no current or voltage drop at any of the coils. As long as the wires are of relative equal length I can't see how there would be any difference in trigger time between them since the trigger is shared.

Just a though. Seems like it would work to me.

/brox

**joedr** · Dec 27, 2008, 08:16 AM

Broxma,

Never thought of doing it that way. Well, I have another ignitor laying around and will do the test to see if it will work. Just for the sake of it! LOL

I was thinking of buying a CDI box to compliment the COP as many other COP setups. AEM seems to be the cheapest option and I have a few guys that confirmed that it will work well. M&W is out of the question do to pricing and it may be an overkill for my 430 WHP target. I am already at 403 WHP with stock IGN and the DLI2.

Just thought that a DIY COP below $500.00 will be a good option for the 400-500 WHP target folks.

Will post results as soon as I get a chance to wire the other ignitor to the COP.

Broxma · Dec 27, 2008, 05:35 PM

I am going to see how far the system I am currently working with can go using the Aurora coils/DSM ignitor setup from the other post, mentioned earlier in this post.

I am by no means an expert on ignition systems but I can make baseless judgments all day.

I'll be at the dyno next week sometime with my current setup, but without E-85 I will be short of my 400 target which is the level I really want to test my system at.

I like the setup your using and I think wired as I described it, it will work like a true COP but without any issues normally associated.

I am interested though. What are the specifications of the 300m coils? I can go hunt it down but I assume someone already has this information or we wouldn't be talking about them right now.

/brox

**joedr** · Dec 27, 2008, 05:57 PM

Broxma,

I have not come across to any sort of specifications on the 300m coils whatsoever. However, I am certain that many professional tuners and shops have done their internal research but for commercial/business reasons do not publish their knowledge to the public. Which... IMHO ... it is understandable.

So, after testing the COP w/o CDI, I understand the need for one (unless dual ignitor falls thru) and the price associated with it. The effort of wiring it together may justify the 700-1100 price tag on a full system. However, I am up for the challenge to get together a system for under 500.00 that anyone can build. The price to pay is that the ignitors are a PITA to find. At least locally.

Will try to get it together tomorrow morning and post results.