Game over for AEM EMS?

Smogrunner · Jul 30, 2006, 11:57 AM

Game over for AEM EMS?

I’ll preface this by saying that if you want to run over 600whp (dynojet), a stand alone is, IMHO, still the way go. However, it seems to me that the vast majority of folks getting the AEM simply don’t need it, and I challenge you to prove otherwise!

Fact: I make 585whp/527wtq at 31psi on the stock ECU, stock MAF, stock ignition, stock head with hks 272s, stock intake manifold, stock throttle body, and a very simple fuel system on only 880cc injectors. That is on a regular Vishnu 3” inch exhaust with 24” resonator added and a magnaflow muffler. No gimmicks, no tricks. My total cost for engine management is $89 for the Tactrix cable for ECUFlash.

Fact: The fastest regularly road raced Evo in the states is the Muellerized Evo driven by Kent Jordan. It uses the stock ECU with just a SAFC (according to the John M.)

Fact: Evoscan logging software for ECUFlash is now available for only $15, making AEM’s logging capabilities less of an advantage.

Fact: The AEM is still not available for the Evo 9.

Cost:
AEM with everything needed to run it: $2400
Many also buy ignition amps: $500
AEM injector drivers to (apparently) make up for less efficient driver in AEM box: $325
Total if you go this route: ~$3225 + installation if you don’t know how to do it yourself.

Stock systems: FREE. They come with your car. Also, tuning with this system is widely available and less complicated and trouble free than AEM Tuning.

Question: Why introduce complicated and expensive new systems that only present more possible areas for failure to your Evo when they are not needed?
Answer: to send vendors' kids to college.

razorlab · Jul 30, 2006, 12:03 PM

I believe Kent/John used to use SAFC but now use a standalone with full datalogging and diagnostic capabilities. However I could be wrong and they might just run datalogging.

R/TErnie · Jul 30, 2006, 12:07 PM

have you ever used an AEM EMS before? or for that matter something comprable...IE Hydra? and your prices on the AEM are a weee bit high...obviously because you're bashing on the aem unit. Maybe this outburst came because you feel you're not getting enough attention because you made 500+whp on a stock ecu. Fact of the matter is no one cares.

I didn't know you could do additional pmw's with a stock ecu? control nitrous solenoids, WI solenoids, 3 step, additional maps for switching between pump and race gas, does the stock ecu have a target and self learn function for CL operation? The list goes on and on.

Quote:

. They come with your car. Also, tuning with this system is widely available and less complicated and trouble free than AEM Tuning.

If your tuner cant tune an AEM unit...I dont think he should be tuning your car.

NoTec · Jul 30, 2006, 12:09 PM

For a NON race car, carefully set up with a big turbo and some type of protection or safety net helping the maf, it would seem Smoggie is correct. But, if you have a hardcore time attack vehicle (Buscher, AMS, GSC, Meuller, Robi), I would think that some form of aftermarket management (piggyback or stand alone) would be a smart investment and a great tool.

evo_08 · Jul 30, 2006, 12:17 PM

what are the limits on the maf?

R/TErnie · Jul 30, 2006, 12:17 PM

can you switch to different saved maps? can you save maps? minimum pulse width? Does this just alter open loop maps? or can you make adjustments to closed loop maps? STT LTT adjustment? Can you control the IAC duty cycle?

R/TErnie · Jul 30, 2006, 12:19 PM

how about switching over to a MAP only unit? issues with MAF sensors? can you rescale the MAF sensor signal with the stock ecu? And how bad does that hurt your resolution of your maps? Excessive rich/ lean spots in the mid throttle section because of extreme MAF scaling? Can the new datalogging software datalog wideband readings? And can your stock ecu read a wideband to map to makes its CL adjustments?

Sean@Iveytune · Jul 30, 2006, 12:20 PM

stock ecu map resolution for rpm stops at 7500.
stock ecu resolution for ignition timing and such over a certain load which can maxed on a stock turbo, doesn't allow you to diffrentiate between 30psi and 35psi. No resolution. I am sure it can make power as I have done the same but in no way is that the optimum way to do things.
Anything over 450 wheel HP and anything over a gt3076 turbo and higher boost the AEM or some other standalone is the way to go.

Sean

Smogrunner · Jul 30, 2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean I

stock ecu map resolution for rpm stops at 7500.
stock ecu resolution for ignition timing and such over a certain load which can maxed on a stock turbo, doesn't allow you to diffrentiate between 30psi and 35psi. No resolution. I am sure it can make power as I have done the same but in no way is that the optimum way to do things.
Anything over 450 wheel HP and anything over a gt3076 turbo and higher boost the AEM or some other standalone is the way to go.

Sean

Sean,
I respect your opinion more than almost anyone on this forum. However, I have repeatedly seen simple reflashed 35Rs make perfectly smooth power up to 540whp at around 8000rpms with stable AFRs on the stock block and 30Rs make 500 on the stock bottom end with reflashes.

I understand resolution issues at high boost and high rpms, but for whatever reason, I don't see these issues actually manifesting themselves in real life.

My point is this: Get the AEM only after it is apparent by actual observation that you have gone beyond the stock systems. I think that several of us have now proven that the AEM isn't needed until much later in the modification process than was previously reported.

So, assuming that money is limited:

Why not get a rebuilt Shepard tranny AND a Quaiffe LSD for the same money.

-or-

Get a brand new Buschur Turbo Kit for the same money

-or-

Get get a set of Muellerized coilovers (I'd say Vishnu Ohlins but they cost more than an AEM)

-or-

Get a set of very nice wheels with race rubber

-or- etc, etc

Blue Evo 8 · Jul 30, 2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smogrunner

Sean,
I respect your opinion more than almost anyone on this forum. However, I have repeatedly seen simple reflashed 35Rs make perfectly smooth power up to 540whp at around 8000rpms with stable AFRs on the stock block and 30Rs make 500 on the stock bottom end with reflashes.

I understand resolution issues at high boost and high rpms, but for whatever reason, I don't see these issues actually manifesting themselves in real life.

My point is this: Get the AEM only after it is apparent by actual observation that you have gone beyond the stock systems. I think that several of us have now proven that the AEM isn't needed until much later in the modification process than was previously reported.

So, assuming that money is limited:

Why not get a rebuilt Shepard tranny AND a Quaiffe LSD for the same money.

-or-

Get a brand new Buschur Turbo Kit for the same money

-or-

Get get a set of Muellerized coilovers

-or-

Get a set of very nice wheels with race rubber

-or- etc, etc

or a case of beer
or that plasma tv you've always wanted
or take that vacation you've always wanted to go on

evo_08 · Jul 30, 2006, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Evo 8

or a case of beer
or that plasma tv you've always wanted
or take that vacation you've always wanted to go on

R/TErnie · Jul 30, 2006, 12:48 PM

so does that mean that you don't have any information?... or are you're just singing la-la-la-la while you shake your head side to side and tell yourself that the voices in your head aren't real?

4-BNGR · Jul 30, 2006, 12:53 PM

Magic Bullet Theory

mchuang · Jul 30, 2006, 12:56 PM

ECU FLASH is a great program, and does the job just fine. But I agree with Sean after about 500hp I would opt for a full standalone. I mean AEM has too many usable features other than the ones mentioned, it also traces what load cell you are in and also lets you tune on the fly, big plus in my book especially when tuning for drivability. Also you keep stating that your motor is basically stock, but man you have a 2.3 stroker

, so your motor is far from stock IMO. I not knocking on you love your accomplishments, but the bottom end is built.

Sean@Iveytune · Jul 30, 2006, 01:14 PM

Any 2.0 with a larger turbo that needs to go over 8000RPM, a better solution will be needed.
If you max the air sensor at 26psi or so on a certain turbo, what do you do for load exceeding that? Do you just run it on the last load column? Now when you optimize it for that higher boost, how do you handle it when you lower the boost. For all intents and purpose the ecu is seeing the same load at different boost levels once you max out the air sensor, not acceptable for me, but to each his own.
What about the ability to get proper driveability with the larger cams now available for the evo.
Nitrous control?
Antilag rev limiting for drag launch?
Various inputs and outputs for auxillary functions.

There is so much more you are really comparing apples to oranges.

I am not trying to strongarm anyone into seeing it my way but I tell you, the stock ecu is great up to a certain point but there are limitations, which in some cases can be worked around.

I have a dyno sheet sitting here with a stock 2.0 with HKS cams, and head studs.
It made 593 WHP/480 FTLB STOCK BOTTOM END! (c16 and meth inj)
You need to have control to allow the engines to live at this level with soft internals.

Sean