Making the rear diff stronger - Cryo treat?

rodent · May 31, 2009, 09:38 AM

To avoid any more rear diff casualties at the track, I'm looking at making my rear diff stronger using cryogenic treatment. Has anyone tried this to the rear end?

There's plenty of places that do this but I'll probably just take it down to Jacks Transmission to get it done.

FAQ:
http://www.nitrofreeze.com/racing.ht...FR0Sagodqi7PBw

Quote:

Cryogenic Treatment of Auto and Racing Parts

Nitrofreeze Cryogenic Treatment is the ultimate competitive advantage for any racer or motor sports’ enthusiast. Nitrofreeze Cryogenic Treatment refines the microstructure of the metal in your racing parts. These changes will benefit you.

Cryogenic treatment utilizes liquid nitrogen to bring the temperature of your racing parts down to -300°F. The parts are then kept at this temperature for 24 hours. This relieves the residual stresses and produces a more consistent and uniform material. The benefits of this process are increased part life, less wear, and improved performance. The most popular applications in motor sports include:

Brake Rotors: Rotors experience several significant improvements. They will warp less and dissipate heat better. The change in the microstructure of the rotor will allow an increase in pad to rotor contact, an increase in lifetime, and a higher resistance to cracking. Now, your brakes will last longer and perform better while improving safety.

Engines: You have the option to treat your whole engine or specific parts. Cryogenically treated engines and components will exhibit less wear and will be less prone to cracking. Engine blocks that are treated prior to final honing will benefit from reduced friction, which will increase horsepower and torque.

Rear Ends: Treating rear ends will reduce wear and improve crack resistance. Your ring and pinion gears will be less susceptible to chipped teeth and overall failure.

Transmissions: Cryogenic treatment of transmissions will increase the life of all internal parts as well as the casing. Gear failure and wear will be reduced. There have been reports that smoother shifting and better clutch performance have resulted from transmission treatment. Treatment is available for both automatic and manual transmissions.

Bearings: Treated bearings will last longer and be more resistant to wear. They will also roll smoother. Axle and wheel bearings are recommended.

I tried to search on this topic but found nothing. If there's a thread already, please post it here.

rt_cine · Jun 3, 2009, 07:03 AM

Rodent,

I work at the place that sells Nitrofreeze Cryogenic Services. It was nice to see you copy and paste that text from our site. But, let's talk about rear ends and cryogenics.

Cryogenic treatment was originally made for high wear items such as gears and cutting blades. We treat many transmissions (usually just the gears) to reduce wear and the possibility of lost teeth. This also goes for rear ends. Testing of cryogenically treated metals has found that the metal is often 150x to 200x stronger after treatment.

If you are worried about a fatigue failure especially at the track, then cryo is a reasonable alternative to spending hundreds on an aftermarket performance rear end. One of the main components of cryogenic treatment is residual stress relief. This removes all the microscopic cracks and propagation lines that are created during the manufacturing process whether it be forged or casted. Cryogenic treatment removes these lines and cracks through alignment of the material at a molecular level.

Also, remember that all cryogenic treatment services are not the same. Some only have holds at -300F for only 12 or 18 hours. Very few in the country offer a 24 hour process. Longer the better.

If you have any questions PM me or just reply. Good luck.

cij911 · Jun 3, 2009, 07:09 AM

We did it back in the 90s with 911 race cars....It seemed to help, but we did not have a statistically significant sample size

....Good luck

rodent · Jun 4, 2009, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rt_cine

Rodent,

I work at the place that sells Nitrofreeze Cryogenic Services. It was nice to see you copy and paste that text from our site. But, let's talk about rear ends and cryogenics.

Cryogenic treatment was originally made for high wear items such as gears and cutting blades. We treat many transmissions (usually just the gears) to reduce wear and the possibility of lost teeth. This also goes for rear ends. Testing of cryogenically treated metals has found that the metal is often 150x to 200x stronger after treatment.

If you are worried about a fatigue failure especially at the track, then cryo is a reasonable alternative to spending hundreds on an aftermarket performance rear end. One of the main components of cryogenic treatment is residual stress relief. This removes all the microscopic cracks and propagation lines that are created during the manufacturing process whether it be forged or casted. Cryogenic treatment removes these lines and cracks through alignment of the material at a molecular level.

Also, remember that all cryogenic treatment services are not the same. Some only have holds at -300F for only 12 or 18 hours. Very few in the country offer a 24 hour process. Longer the better.

If you have any questions PM me or just reply. Good luck.

Great info! I think I may give it a shot and see how it holds up over time with the hard launches. I'm also going to add Buschur's line of rear end components that help keep the rear end from moving around and should help along with an alum. driveshaft which should help with the shock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cij911

We did it back in the 90s with 911 race cars....It seemed to help, but we did not have a statistically significant sample size

....Good luck

Yeah, I know its been around for awhile abut I've never tried it except for my DSM trans. Mostly curious if anyone has tried it with the rear end and had good luck. I know Jacks and others offer the service for the transmission. I'm sure it couldn't hurt.

EvoAlex48 · Jun 5, 2009, 05:27 PM

How much do the 12-18 hour treatments cost on say....the block?

rt_cine · Jun 8, 2009, 11:48 AM

12 and 18 hour treatments are typically the same price after looking at my competitors.

Our process is 24 hours and to do an engine block for a 4 cylinder costs $260.00.

The entire process start to finish including ramp down to -300F, then the hold for 24 hours, then ramp back to room temperature, and final post-temper takes about 70 hours.

Hope that helps.

mitsuatb · Jun 8, 2009, 11:57 AM

Only a very few steel alloys which have a stable austinite phase that forms a cyro temps can benifit from this.

Such as knife and cutting tool steel.

Gears, Iron, ect don't change at all.

Everybody has claims and no proof.

High profit margin, and easy to do.

Right up there with Extense blue pills.

If you think it will work, then you are happy, but no physics behind it.

Mitsuatb

rodent · Jun 8, 2009, 04:38 PM

I thought the gears were hardened steel? Why do places like Jacks Transmission offer this to the gears in the transmissions? Every place I've been to said it helps.

mitsuatb · Jun 9, 2009, 09:43 AM

Why - They want to make money!!!!

Timer

Vat of Liquid N2

Print money!!!

They also offer this treatment for brake rotors - Cast Iron - Think camping fry pan!!!

Nuff Said

JackM · Jun 9, 2009, 04:33 PM

I offer the cryo service on my site, because there are many out there that want it. I highly recommend the REM ISF Micropolishing, but some don't listen and insist on the cryo work instead. Micropolishing seems to work where I have not seen any difference in wear or tooth breakage in Mitsubishis with cryoed gears. Cryo doesn't hurt anything, but it doesn't seem to help either. The micropolishing seems to be the only thing that will extend gear life, but it will only extend the life not make it live forever. If you are breaking gears, micropolishing will help them last a little longer but they will fatigue and they will break again. It's all part of racing unfortunately. There is a reason why it's so expensive to be fast.

I would recommend the micropolishing as it actually does something. If it is worth the cost to you though is what you will have to decide as it will only extend the life of the gears. Spending $500 on a new ring and pinion for your rear end every 2-3 seasons really isn't that bad of a deal considering how much other things cost to keep up during that time.

Jack

rodent · Jun 9, 2009, 06:44 PM

Thanks for your input Jack. Makes sense.

EvoAlex48 · Jun 10, 2009, 03:14 AM

REM ISF is good ****

rodent · Jun 10, 2009, 09:53 AM

Jack- Can you do the REM ISF or does anyone know where I can send my gears to?

JackM · Jun 12, 2009, 04:16 PM

We have been using these guys:

http://www.taylor-race.com/isotropic.cfm

A google search will also find others that do them as well.

Jack

GPTourer · Jun 12, 2009, 04:29 PM

The guy who built my Eclipse's engine cryo treated the block, crank, rods and pistons, but that's not why I picked them. I don't have anything else to gauge it against since it is my first built engine, but so far so good. I think they are starting to build Evo motors now.

www.ffwdconnection.com