Ebay Buyers Beware!!!!

[rufus1]

I would like to see if it is really better cause tha ss autochrome ic is cheap and ams is expensive.

[kilo_dave]

Originally Posted by wprettyboy

this is an old post but i just want to see AMS intercooler compared to the XS POWER. If its junk then the ams should perform better!!!! I dont like it when people say that something is junk because its cheaper. I'm not bashing AMS at all, i have some of there products. I just want to see the difference!!

Not junk cuz it's cheaper, it's junk cuz they ripped off AMS.

[JoeWalker4G63]

SS Autochromes products have been proven to be junk for years now. Welds breaking, mainfolds actually falling off of their flanges, the items that Eric mentioned in his first post, and etc. In the DSM world where I came from this has been known fact for a while.

[EVOlutionary]

Please read this entire post with an open mind before judging my opinion.

I have heard bad things about SSAC's products for other cars, but I have not yet heard many negative posts from users of their EVO parts. Maybe because their EVO knock offs were based on a pruven and solid design.

I can understand and sympathize with folks who are modding on a tight budget. If I can get a tubular exhaust manifold AND intercooler for less than a "name brand" IC would cost, PLUS the company makes them sound like they work really great, I would be temped to do so. If the SSAC intercooler works equally as well as the AMS intercooler, I would say that anyone who pays 3x the price just because it is USDM is silly. Kind of like the people who pay $1500 for an intercooler just because it is JDM. We don't yell at them and say "Bad ricerboy, you should buy American products."

But I digress; the point here is not about what where a product is made or the price. The point is that another company copied your design. What do you do about it. Simple. Instead of trying to play the patriotism factor and get people to pay $500 more for your part, which has not yet been pruven to be superior, SELL THEM BOTH. Get hooked up with the Chinese manufacturer and sell the $200 IC as well as the $700 IC.

If the AMS comes out on top let us know. People will pay more for a product if they KNOW it is better than a competitor. Plus you can still sell the cheap one as a "better than stock, but not the best" solution to people on a tight budget. Then those folks will have more $$$ to spend on more of your products.

If both end up performing equally well, let your welders work on some other products and start selling the Chinese version for $30 more than XSPower. People will know you are the innovator, tester, and know that you offer great support when they have needs or questions. You will sell even more than you sell of the $700 version.

I will admit that I have an XSPower IC on my EVO, simply because I did not have enough money for a name brand one and I am not good at waiting/saving. I will take mine off and ship it too you if you would like to test it vs. your IC. Likewise, if you send me an AMS IC, I would do some back to back intake air temp and boost pressure logs on the AEM EMS to see if there is a difference, then either buy yours or return it based on the results.

I will have much more $$$ this winter and am building a complete race car. At that time I will be using your new jumbo race IC, if available, and the XSPower will thrown out.

EVOlutionary

[Torre from Va.]

BUMP.

[AutoMotoSports]

Originally Posted by EVOlutionary

Please read this entire post with an open mind before judging my opinion.

I have heard bad things about SSAC's products for other cars, but I have not yet heard many negative posts from users of their EVO parts. Maybe because their EVO knock offs were based on a pruven and solid design.

I can understand and sympathize with folks who are modding on a tight budget. If I can get a tubular exhaust manifold AND intercooler for less than a "name brand" IC would cost, PLUS the company makes them sound like they work really great, I would be temped to do so. If the SSAC intercooler works equally as well as the AMS intercooler, I would say that anyone who pays 3x the price just because it is USDM is silly. Kind of like the people who pay $1500 for an intercooler just because it is JDM. We don't yell at them and say "Bad ricerboy, you should buy American products."

But I digress; the point here is not about what where a product is made or the price. The point is that another company copied your design. What do you do about it. Simple. Instead of trying to play the patriotism factor and get people to pay $500 more for your part, which has not yet been pruven to be superior, SELL THEM BOTH. Get hooked up with the Chinese manufacturer and sell the $200 IC as well as the $700 IC.

If the AMS comes out on top let us know. People will pay more for a product if they KNOW it is better than a competitor. Plus you can still sell the cheap one as a "better than stock, but not the best" solution to people on a tight budget. Then those folks will have more $$$ to spend on more of your products.

If both end up performing equally well, let your welders work on some other products and start selling the Chinese version for $30 more than XSPower. People will know you are the innovator, tester, and know that you offer great support when they have needs or questions. You will sell even more than you sell of the $700 version.

I will admit that I have an XSPower IC on my EVO, simply because I did not have enough money for a name brand one and I am not good at waiting/saving. I will take mine off and ship it too you if you would like to test it vs. your IC. Likewise, if you send me an AMS IC, I would do some back to back intake air temp and boost pressure logs on the AEM EMS to see if there is a difference, then either buy yours or return it based on the results.

I will have much more $$$ this winter and am building a complete race car. At that time I will be using your new jumbo race IC, if available, and the XSPower will thrown out.

EVOlutionary

it is this mindset that is killing the industry. The only reason they are thriving is because they are stealing the engineering and R&D of established companies and mass producing them in a cheaper market. You might of saved some money but in the end you have just contributed in a small way to the decline of well engineered parts. you are simply trying to rationalize your purchase as being the right thing to do...and it is not sir.

and an FYI on the intercooler. The SSAC and XS power IC is showing to LOSE hp over the stock core let alone our core. You get what you pay for.

What products would they be able to sell if they were not copying off good companies??? none!

This has nothing to do with patirotism...this has to do with buisness ethics and just plain Stealing! They have even gone to the trouble of using images of OUR intercooler and piping to advertise there product.

Eric

[zze86]

I agree with EVOlutionary

[AutoMotoSports]

unfortunetly alot of people do and as long as they do companies like XS power will continue to make money and rob other companies R&D and enginering. At this rate they might not go away untill the companies they are knocking off go out of buisness because they cant keep the doors open to engineer that great product. I really hope this isnt a barometer for the direction the industry is going.

Eric

[Curt@MrLed]

if some of these people tried to make parts for these cars ,and then sell them, to only find out some got there design, mass produced it, and sold it cheaper, well then you people would be as pi55ed as ams is... but hey this america and things like this happen, just dont come on here posting, why doesnt my car make the power it should, or why did these welds break, cause you saved some money and now your seeing your saved money at work.... i have said it before and i will say it again, i will pay more for parts from the small guy, than buy mass produced junk..

as i have said in this thread.. Polished aluminum radiator covers, product idea

[EVOlutionary]

UPDATE - Since my last post I have taken off the SSAC intercooler and switched back to the stock one for the following reasons:
#1 - It has now been shown to make equal or less power than the stock IC at stock boost levels.
#2 - The stock one weighs about 20 pounds less. I can not justify the extra weight if I am not getting a performance increase.

All that is needed to deter the purchase of parts like the SSAC stuff is solid information. If you just tell someone that it is junk, it most likely will not deter thier purchase. However, if you can show conclusively that a cheap part underperforms the more expensive part, more people will opt for the more expensive part. Also, if you can show that a cheap part underperforms the stock parts, I bet almost no one will buy the cheap one.

If someone had tested the SSAC intercooler when it first came out, and showed it did not work well, I bet a lot less people would have bought them. I really don't think AMS is going to lose too much $$ over this, because I bet alot of people who have bought the SSAC stuff will eventually dump it and move on to a high quality AMS piece. That is what I am doing.

Companies who make superior products (such as AMS) need to stay vigilant in showing the consumer the value of said product. We lose our way. We look out for ourselves. We need to know that when we part with our hard-earned money that we are getting something that is worth every penny we are paying for it.

The whole "generic" or "knock-off" thing is not specific to the automotive industry. Look at the food industry. When I walk down the breakfast aisle at my local Kroger grocery store I can either choose to buy cherry flavor POP TARTS for $3.49, or cherry flavored Kroger brand TOASTER PASTRIES for $1.99. In this case I am going to buy the POP TARTS because I have tried the Kroger brand and it was not as good. Kroger's knock off of HOT POCKETS, however, is better than the national brand and much cheaper, so I buy Kroger. If HOT POCKETS market share starts to decline they can do one (or more) of 3 things - lower their cost, increase the quality, or increase advertising.

Similar thing happens with the prescription pharmaceutical industry. Pfizer spends half a billion dollars inventing VIAGRA. They have 12 years from the time they first discover the drug and patent it until other drug companies can start making it. They spend 5-7 years on R+D, leaving only about 5-7 years to recoup their investment. Generally when a brand name goes off patent it's market share drops from 100% to maybe 10%. Because quality is government controlled in this industry they can only do 2 things to try to gain back market share, increase advertising or lower cost. All of this is good for the consumer. With 10 companies now making the generic and competing with eachother for market share the prices fall big time. People who before may not have been able to afford the medicine, can now afford it.

I strongly disagree that the automotive aftermarket industry is being killed. In fact, I think we are still in the early stages of a huge and wide-spread boom in the automotive aftermarket. Especially on this side of the Mississippi river. New companies are popping up every day, new magazines coming out all the time, and television is starting to catch on to the craze of "Import Cars", "Tuner Cars", whatever we want to call them. Just 2 years ago I doubt it if you could see a single drift event on TV or even a NOPI drag race. Now they are on EVERY WEEK. Take a look at the SEMA show. Every year it gets crazier and bigger, and the billions of $$$ spent in the industry continues to grow with it.

Eric, although our opinions on this matter differ a bit, I have great respect for AMS's products and people. You guys are true leaders and pioneers in the EVO community. That is why I am saving my pennies (make that Benjamins!). Although I bought an SSAC intercooler, I will be bringing you about $10000 in business by springtime. I am building a nationally competitive Solo II Street Modified autocross monster this spring. I am shooting to dethrone the BMW in SM class at Nationals come next year. I am sure others who wasted money on the knock off intercoolers will be calling you up soon with Visa cards in hand.

Thanks, and keep the great innovations coming. We, the consumers, will show our appreciation with our continued patronage.

EVOlutionary

[VTECH8TR]

Originally Posted by EVOlutionary

UPDATE - Since my last post I have taken off the SSAC intercooler and switched back to the stock one for the following reasons:
#1 - It has now been shown to make equal or less power than the stock IC at stock boost levels.
#2 - The stock one weighs about 20 pounds less. I can not justify the extra weight if I am not getting a performance increase.

All that is needed to deter the purchase of parts like the SSAC stuff is solid information. If you just tell someone that it is junk, it most likely will not deter thier purchase. However, if you can show conclusively that a cheap part underperforms the more expensive part, more people will opt for the more expensive part. Also, if you can show that a cheap part underperforms the stock parts, I bet almost no one will buy the cheap one.

If someone had tested the SSAC intercooler when it first came out, and showed it did not work well, I bet a lot less people would have bought them. I really don't think AMS is going to lose too much $$ over this, because I bet alot of people who have bought the SSAC stuff will eventually dump it and move on to a high quality AMS piece. That is what I am doing.

Companies who make superior products (such as AMS) need to stay vigilant in showing the consumer the value of said product. We lose our way. We look out for ourselves. We need to know that when we part with our hard-earned money that we are getting something that is worth every penny we are paying for it.

The whole "generic" or "knock-off" thing is not specific to the automotive industry. Look at the food industry. When I walk down the breakfast aisle at my local Kroger grocery store I can either choose to buy cherry flavor POP TARTS for $3.49, or cherry flavored Kroger brand TOASTER PASTRIES for $1.99. In this case I am going to buy the POP TARTS because I have tried the Kroger brand and it was not as good. Kroger's knock off of HOT POCKETS, however, is better than the national brand and much cheaper, so I buy Kroger. If HOT POCKETS market share starts to decline they can do one (or more) of 3 things - lower their cost, increase the quality, or increase advertising.

Similar thing happens with the prescription pharmaceutical industry. Pfizer spends half a billion dollars inventing VIAGRA. They have 12 years from the time they first discover the drug and patent it until other drug companies can start making it. They spend 5-7 years on R+D, leaving only about 5-7 years to recoup their investment. Generally when a brand name goes off patent it's market share drops from 100% to maybe 10%. Because quality is government controlled in this industry they can only do 2 things to try to gain back market share, increase advertising or lower cost. All of this is good for the consumer. With 10 companies now making the generic and competing with eachother for market share the prices fall big time. People who before may not have been able to afford the medicine, can now afford it.

I strongly disagree that the automotive aftermarket industry is being killed. In fact, I think we are still in the early stages of a huge and wide-spread boom in the automotive aftermarket. Especially on this side of the Mississippi river. New companies are popping up every day, new magazines coming out all the time, and television is starting to catch on to the craze of "Import Cars", "Tuner Cars", whatever we want to call them. Just 2 years ago I doubt it if you could see a single drift event on TV or even a NOPI drag race. Now they are on EVERY WEEK. Take a look at the SEMA show. Every year it gets crazier and bigger, and the billions of $$$ spent in the industry continues to grow with it.

Eric, although our opinions on this matter differ a bit, I have great respect for AMS's products and people. You guys are true leaders and pioneers in the EVO community. That is why I am saving my pennies (make that Benjamins!). Although I bought an SSAC intercooler, I will be bringing you about $10000 in business by springtime. I am building a nationally competitive Solo II Street Modified autocross monster this spring. I am shooting to dethrone the BMW in SM class at Nationals come next year. I am sure others who wasted money on the knock off intercoolers will be calling you up soon with Visa cards in hand.

Thanks, and keep the great innovations coming. We, the consumers, will show our appreciation with our continued patronage.

EVOlutionary

Well said man. This is soo true, and at least you learned that their is no place for imitations .

[AutoMotoSports]

Im sorry you had to spend the money to learn that lesson but I appreciate your kind words. We were hesitant to test that IC because we knew what the results would be and Since we make one of the product being tested the opportunity for a biased opinion would be great. A 3rd party would prove to be the best testing ground. Truth be told for every product we R&D there are 2 or three companies looking to clone it and make a buck off of it. This is why when we make a product we put the time and money into R&D to makes sure that if it is duplictated in aesthetics it is not duplicated in performance. The SSAC IC is a perfect example of that.

AMS is by no means a powerhouse when it comes to the money we bring in. we make enough to get by and love doing this. Alot of the employees here are giving up much higher paying engineer, sales and technician positions for the opportunity to have a job that we can wake up to every morning and not strain to walk in these doors. In the end it is a buisness but you guys have no idea how proud we feel when a customer or a peer says something nice about a product our staff developed. When we put the AMS name on anything that leaves these doors we all know good and well that it represents every single person on this staff. Thanks again guys.

The best customer is an Educated customer!

Eric

[Stop&TurnFreak]

How true......!!!

[zze86]

Originally Posted by EVOlutionary

UPDATE - Since my last post I have taken off the SSAC intercooler and switched back to the stock one for the following reasons:
#1 - It has now been shown to make equal or less power than the stock IC at stock boost levels.
#2 - The stock one weighs about 20 pounds less. I can not justify the extra weight if I am not getting a performance increase.

All that is needed to deter the purchase of parts like the SSAC stuff is solid information. If you just tell someone that it is junk, it most likely will not deter thier purchase. However, if you can show conclusively that a cheap part underperforms the more expensive part, more people will opt for the more expensive part. Also, if you can show that a cheap part underperforms the stock parts, I bet almost no one will buy the cheap one.

If someone had tested the SSAC intercooler when it first came out, and showed it did not work well, I bet a lot less people would have bought them. I really don't think AMS is going to lose too much $$ over this, because I bet alot of people who have bought the SSAC stuff will eventually dump it and move on to a high quality AMS piece. That is what I am doing.

Companies who make superior products (such as AMS) need to stay vigilant in showing the consumer the value of said product. We lose our way. We look out for ourselves. We need to know that when we part with our hard-earned money that we are getting something that is worth every penny we are paying for it.

The whole "generic" or "knock-off" thing is not specific to the automotive industry. Look at the food industry. When I walk down the breakfast aisle at my local Kroger grocery store I can either choose to buy cherry flavor POP TARTS for $3.49, or cherry flavored Kroger brand TOASTER PASTRIES for $1.99. In this case I am going to buy the POP TARTS because I have tried the Kroger brand and it was not as good. Kroger's knock off of HOT POCKETS, however, is better than the national brand and much cheaper, so I buy Kroger. If HOT POCKETS market share starts to decline they can do one (or more) of 3 things - lower their cost, increase the quality, or increase advertising.

Similar thing happens with the prescription pharmaceutical industry. Pfizer spends half a billion dollars inventing VIAGRA. They have 12 years from the time they first discover the drug and patent it until other drug companies can start making it. They spend 5-7 years on R+D, leaving only about 5-7 years to recoup their investment. Generally when a brand name goes off patent it's market share drops from 100% to maybe 10%. Because quality is government controlled in this industry they can only do 2 things to try to gain back market share, increase advertising or lower cost. All of this is good for the consumer. With 10 companies now making the generic and competing with eachother for market share the prices fall big time. People who before may not have been able to afford the medicine, can now afford it.

I strongly disagree that the automotive aftermarket industry is being killed. In fact, I think we are still in the early stages of a huge and wide-spread boom in the automotive aftermarket. Especially on this side of the Mississippi river. New companies are popping up every day, new magazines coming out all the time, and television is starting to catch on to the craze of "Import Cars", "Tuner Cars", whatever we want to call them. Just 2 years ago I doubt it if you could see a single drift event on TV or even a NOPI drag race. Now they are on EVERY WEEK. Take a look at the SEMA show. Every year it gets crazier and bigger, and the billions of $$$ spent in the industry continues to grow with it.

Eric, although our opinions on this matter differ a bit, I have great respect for AMS's products and people. You guys are true leaders and pioneers in the EVO community. That is why I am saving my pennies (make that Benjamins!). Although I bought an SSAC intercooler, I will be bringing you about $10000 in business by springtime. I am building a nationally competitive Solo II Street Modified autocross monster this spring. I am shooting to dethrone the BMW in SM class at Nationals come next year. I am sure others who wasted money on the knock off intercoolers will be calling you up soon with Visa cards in hand.

Thanks, and keep the great innovations coming. We, the consumers, will show our appreciation with our continued patronage.

EVOlutionary

again completely agree, except I'm not trying to de-throne a BMW at Nationals

[trinydex]

i was waxing and waning about posting something... but i think it's necessary now.

Originally Posted by AutoMotoSports

XS power is the maker of the intercooler and XS power products are made in china. Its stamped on everything they make. Look at there turbos its clear as day. ssautochroms and XS power are not making these guys in house they are sourcing them out to china. we are in no way shape or form condeming a whole country just these cases of fraudulent activity. This isnt something new. these cloned and "knock off" product cases have been around for YEARS! we simply want to inform our customers and make sure they are away this is NOT the same intercooler we sell.

Eric

what if they had been making it in house... and it was copied in america... then is the US ****ing up your industry? clarify please... because THAT is of the UTMOST importance. please don't go around blaming china for MAKING stuff that people TELL them to make. as a country coming up through cheaper labor rates and such that is the name of the game for them. the us did it too mind you... they just brought their OWN cheap labor from africa. EVERY country must go through this, it's the basic model of industrialization. like wingless said... UNSCRUPULOUS INDIVIDUALS, THEY have a responsibility to make sure the stuff they have made is kosher, china has no idea you even exist... so blame the sheisty ****s... cuz hey... they might be chinese... but they might NOT be also.

Originally Posted by AutoMotoSports

it is this mindset that is killing the industry. The only reason they are thriving is because they are stealing the engineering and R&D of established companies and mass producing them in a cheaper market. You might of saved some money but in the end you have just contributed in a small way to the decline of well engineered parts. you are simply trying to rationalize your purchase as being the right thing to do...and it is not sir.

and an FYI on the intercooler. The SSAC and XS power IC is showing to LOSE hp over the stock core let alone our core. You get what you pay for.

What products would they be able to sell if they were not copying off good companies??? none!

This has nothing to do with patirotism...this has to do with buisness ethics and just plain Stealing! They have even gone to the trouble of using images of OUR intercooler and piping to advertise there product.

Eric

you cannot possibly be worried about them stealing your technology... they're not using the same core, they're not doing anything but stealing your figures which are basically baseless for them adn this type of copycat marketing happens all teh time in this industry. they're using a crappy lobe core that doesn't cool... they copied your image and the numbers that go along with your image, nothing to do with your technology that you developed... and that's the other part... in the end they will suffer for their inferior part... why are you worried? they can't possibly edge you outta the performance market... they're not even making a performance part, they're making stuff for cheap asses that need the look, and they are getting some unwitting buyers in the process... but in the end everyone will know the truth.

Originally Posted by kilo_dave

Not junk cuz it's cheaper, it's junk cuz they ripped off AMS.

it is junk because it's not a performance part. it's not junk because they stole images, look and numbers from ams, it's BAD BUSINESS PRACTICE, SHADY SHADY BUSINESS PRACTICE, not junk... shady.

i don't understand why you guys think they're robbing you of something, your guy's ic is still the ams ic that is good. please don't be so hurt by this because their product does not compare to yours. people on the internet make false claims about numbers all the time. in the automotive aftermarket industry it's so sad but it's practically EXPECTED. please, don't make me see you guys in a lower light because these sheisty business people tried to make a quick buck, please be the bigger people that we all want you to be.