3000ways

I do not start this thread to muddy the water of a potential competitor of the Evolution, but I hope to help the owners of these cars with what seems to be a very serious issue. The more people and especially potential customers that know about this, the harder it will be for Mazda to skirt this under the rug.

While companies like Mitsubishi and at one time Nissan were for years plagued with reliability issues, Mazda for some reason has hid under the radar, how the f*ck is this possible when so many of there cars have had some major issues. You cannot sit here and tell me that the Mazda RX-7 was bullet proof, that car was and has always been plagued with some major and expensive reliabilty issues. My belief is that reason why Mazda is so slow in adding FI to RX-8 despite the many calls for more power, is that Mazda knows, that RX-8 would be a reliability nightmare with a factory turbo option.

Now this brings us to the latest Mazda mishap, the MazdaSpeed 6, a great car, but people this car is suffering a mysterious power loss problem. Roughly half of the MSP 6 owners have complained of this problem, and it doesn't matter how many miles are on the car and whether you use 91 octane or 93/94 octane gas, the problem is universal. I say roughly half, but the issue has probably effected much more, but they have yet to speak about it or it hasn't but soon will become an issue with the owners that have not had the issue yet.

What is this problem loss issue? Well if your thinking a 20-30HP loss you are wrong, we are talking about a major power loss, of roughly 1/2 or more power being lost for a period of time. Sometimes it will last for only a couple of seconds, but for others it happends for a longer period of time. It does not happend all the time though, and it does go away, but the biggest problem is that owners really have no idea when the problem will arouse again. Imagine merging into heavy traffic, and you need to give the car a little more gas to merge, and BOYAH!!! Power loss. Or passing slower cars and all of a sudden, power loss. I mean, 20-30HP loss at times is not such an issue, but a problem, but a loss of half or even more power can be a danger. Now a lot of these cars are brand new, for instance, one owner complained of this issue his first week, first day of ownership, so really there is not telling if the issue will increase or decrease as the car becomes newer. But owners with 5,000 miles+ are still complaining of this problem.

What is the cause of this? As of now, there really isn't a definitve answer, but one of the leading canidates in my opinion is the location of the intercooler. Many MazdaSpeed 6 owners believe that the location of the intercooler is to forward and it is not properly cooling the engine. This would explain why the issue seems to effect cars that are driving normaly, then are turned off for a extended period of time (example- going to the store) and turned back on and the power loss comes. Although this could be the case, it's not the definitive answer as there are many more theories on why this happending.

Will Mazda act? Nobody knows, but this is becoming such an issue with many owners that Mazda should start to pay attention, but many fear that Mazda will overlook the concerns being that the MSP 6 is a low volume limited edition model. I sincerely hope this is not the case, and I for one will lose a lot of respect for Mazda (as if I have much left) if this is the case. How can Mazda claim Zoom Zoom when there supposed Zoom Zoom car can at times have the acceleration of a dump truck.

And we EVO owners thought we had it bad with our clutches, I hope we all support the MSP 6 owners in this situation and I admit I feel sorry for them. I couldn't imagine the anger I would have if my EVO went through periods of massive power loss at any given time. For more info-

http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.php?showforum=18

3000ways

I just read this, this could be the identification of the problem-

"Ok, so all my *****ing finaly got the right people involved. My service manager was able to speak with someone high up enough that put in a call to Mazda engineers.

Apparently they have found a problem with the knock sensor. It's too sensitive. They're working on a ECU re-flash that will fix it. They won't be retarding timing or anything. Something along the lines of the computer will need to detect more constant knocking for it to retard timing.

He also stressed that low octane would still cause the limp mode. He also found out that very cold temperatures can cause the limp mode to come on. If the car is rev'ed to high before it had a chance to fully warm up limp mode will come on.

So he said about 1 month before we get it. They need to test it first."

silverlining

iTrader: (1)

It's a shame, the car has potential on paper and looks good in person. I highly doubt a re-flash will completely solve this issue.

I'm not sure how a top mount intercooler found it's way on without any form of heat extraction or air induction. My old wrx and my old sti suffered in the heat with the topmount location. I can only imagine what speed6 folks are dealing with, and it's not even summer yet. I think the limp mode/timing pull has to be somehow related to temp/heatsoak conditions. I would not be a happy customer, as $31k nicely equipped is no small chunk of change for maybe/maybe not performance.

There are no aftermarket fmic solutions yet, nor would I expect any to pop up soon. There just aren't many speed6 clients out there, so why should a company invest the $ on product yet. I doubt the average speed6 buyer is looking to throw on aftermarket tuning parts either. Add in the direct injection and tuning the ecu seems even more difficult. I looked under the hood of one recently and I didn't see a whole lot of room for fmic core/plumbing.

I wish speed6 buyers luck and hope they get taken care of. If you recall, mazda botched the hp rating on the 2001 miata and offered to buy the cars back or give out $500 gift cards for owners that kept the cars. We'll have to wait and see what happens this time.

Czubaka

iTrader: (11)

They also had to bump the power rating of the RX-8 down twice before it was released!!! Somebody else should probably build their motors for them.

Mr. Stock

iTrader: (3)

It's not hard to reprogram a knock sensor's threshold...it simply puts out a signal and the ECU interprets that signal. Sounds like the interpretation is causing premature ignition retardation. Heh. Mazda definitely isn't perfect and rushed the third gen 7's development and released it too early as a response to the NSX. You're definitely right about turbocharging a rotary...the two can mix nicely, but it'll never be a 200K engine. I spent $7K on my last engine and I do expect it to last for a bit under high hp, but not 200K! Mazda won't turbocharge the LMP2 Alms car because it simply won't last under endurance conditions. Hence no turbocharger on the 8 which But Mazda also makes some incredibly competent, well engineered, fun to drive cars. They have a pretty good overall lineup from top to bottom currently. Just no new 7 unfortunately.

evolve_

damn thats crazy id better show this to my buddy he's going to buy one in a few months

GreddyEvo

iTrader: (18)

Not to stray, but the intercooler location is terrible. The wrx and sti at least have a chance for flow at speed, but I,ve seen under the hood of a Mazdaspeed 6 and I wonder what they were thinking. All the engineering that went into making a new platform with awd and dumping a v6 for a lighter inline 4 turbo and then just throwing the intercooler on top with a vent scoop in the front lip of the hood. A different sized intercooler will fit out front but would have cost a little more for the extra plumbing. Mazda's choices to save money in these areas to meet that target price range will keep the car from reaching its full potential. Every new model that comes out is going to have bugs.......I still have the occational P0300! Good luck on getting your car fixed, I do like them alot. I had Mazdas for years and my favorite was my 89 mx6 gt. I had just about everything I could find for it. I miss the torque that car had. Mazda makes good stuff, I'm sure thay will take care of you.

Danny23

iTrader: (7)

i test drove one before i bought my IX just for the hell of it, and by the way they offered me 23.5 for my 03 8 (medina mitsubishi gave me 21.5 as a trade in for my BR350IX#005)The car really impressed me if i was looking for a slower, softer, more luxurious sport sedan than an evo.From what i,ve read in magazines the power drops off at about 5500 rpm,s due to breathing restrictions, and it felt like it. The salesman let me really get on the car as hard as i wanted to.In my opinion with a good intake and tune this car would really wake up and be a lot more fun to drive. just my opinion

blonde

iTrader: (12)

it is amazing that Mazda just can't get things like this right. at least in this case, there is a problem with the power unlike their previous cars which were just over over rated (miata, rx8 etc,, were rated higher than they actually had and mazda had to pay ALOT of money to owners)

they know how to make great cars but they always seem to have problems..

Danny23

iTrader: (7)

with the advertised h.p and tq. ratings i really expected the 6 to be a bit of a little rocket, but just the opposite. still liked the car very much and if i wasn.t an evo guy i would,ve bought the car. every option incl. nav for 31.9, 30 even without the nav.

Rod Munch

iTrader: (5)

As a former RX-8 owner and longtime Miata owner, I liked the MS6. I could have got one for dealer cost. But I picked the Evo. The MS6, even when it's running right, can barely break 6 seconds zero to 60, and if my car had the problems mentioned above it would have killed my buzz big time. Plus, I love the Evo's look, and not so much the MS6. So here I am.

johnturbotron

iTrader: (4)

I have a friend who drives a Mazda6 v-6 and is looking to upgrade to the MazdaSpeed6 women like turbo's and Six-speeds and since I have already talked her out of an RX-8 I guess I will have to tell her to stick with her v-6.

Evolution Racer

iTrader: (3)

"I'm not sure how a top mount intercooler found it's way on without any form of heat extraction or air induction"

If you take a look under the hood, there is a black piece that takes air from the front grill and rams it into the intercooler. Its attached to the underside of the hood.

The problem could also be overboosting. If you take a look at a lot of cars out there, the ECU will automatically kick the turbo into limp mode if the car is overboosted. When I had my 337 GTi I went into limp mode a lot because of the boost controller and my K03 not wanting so stay controlled and spiking at 21PSIs. It overboosted to 24PSI and the turbo would just go limp.

Intake wise, there is an intake for it through Mazdaspeed. The power doesn't drop off because of the intake, but much differently, it uses a K04 Turbo. That turbo is about the size of a coffee can. If someone put the car out on the dyno, you will notice that all the torque is right around 3000 RPMs as well as the power. The K04 cannot compare to our even our turbos.

If you drive a V6 Mazda6, a RX-8 and then a Mazdaspeed6 you will notice that the Mazdaspeed is MUCH faster, corners amazingly compared to those other two and feels very solid.

I have the privilege to drive both everyday. I have my own evo and I also have a mazdaspeed6 as a demo. We have never had any complaints on the vehicles yet. Even our Evos have glitches and problems during the first year of production, the Mazdaspeed6 was just introduced. This is the first year Mazda released a direct injection engine in the states.

The craftsmenship quality of Mazda's are perhaps one of japanese's best. Look at the joints and dash. It doesn't feel flimsy and full of plastic like our cars. The panels fit together perfectly. Mazda is one of the only companies that still has their most popular cars BUILT in japan (ex: Mazda3, Mazda5, so on and so forth). The only Mazda cars that are built in the US are the Mazda6, Tribute and the B-Series trucks.

silverlining

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the observations.

I'm curious to see if complaints go away because there is an actual fix to a real issue, or if buyers are simply expecting more performance than the car delivers. This isn't exactly a high production car. I would think the average buyer is expecting real performance for the price, otherwise they would get a regular 6.

I still have a hard time believing there is enough airflow for sustained performance driving after heatsoak arrives, especially in high heat environments. I know mazda employs engineers to make sure these things work, but they did choose to go fmic (so tiny!) on the miataspeed. A top mount wouldn't fit under the mx-5 hood, and I think the speed6 hood bulge looks so-so. Where is the i/c going to be on the speed3?

As far as a limp mode/overboost comparison, I thought the condition was brough on with 1.8t vw's only if chipped or modified intake/exhaust? What conditions could cause a stock speed6 to go to a limp mode, and shouldn't it throw a cel code as well?

I will say that the interior is nice, as long as you are looking at the leather package car. However, for $32k, they could have done a bit better. The panel fit is good, and materials are cool. It's like they had to choose between a near-luxury interior and a sports sedan feel and couldn't make their mind up. There is a bit more plastic, although textured nicely than I would expect in a spotlight model.

Don't get me wrong. The car looks great on paper, good in person, but doesn't have the numbers I would pay $32k for. For me, a Legacy GT with a tbe and a cobb ap would be a better buy and cost less, and still have money left over for real tires.

Flyin miata is having good luck with Hydra ecu tuning on the miataspeed. I would love to see them work on a 6 and post some numbers. Ecu tuning, fmic, tbe, and maybe a turbo/injector tweak might get me to look at a speed6. Oh, and no mysterious power loss would be good too.

David@Vishnu

iTrader: (2)

We can say definitively that Mazda is acting upon this complaint. They have spent a lot of time testing the MSP 6 to determine the cause of the sudden power loss issue. They have been more responsive to customer feedback than ANY manufacturer we've ever worked with, Mitsubishi and Subaru included. Hang tight... they know what is goine on.