E-85 vs meth injectors/pump

project_skyline · Jul 14, 2009, 03:30 PM

Alright so we already got the low down and verdict on e85 vs race gas.

The overall general consensus is that e85 is cheaper (obviously) and made more power then both c16 and q16.

The one big down side of running e85 is the much larger fuel requirements then race gas. As an example Awdmotorsports is running 8 1600cc injectors at an already high IDC.

Recently while browsing nasioc I read a vendor who favored meth injection over e85 for several reasons.

So for arguments sake lets hear everyone's opinions on e85 vs meth and PUMP gas only as far as power potential.

A few things to point out from reading and what i know...

-e85 fuel economy isn't something thats worth mentioning most times but is usually offset by the cost makes up the difference although i've found currently not so much now that gas isn't $4+ a gallon.
-e85 requires more fuel which means more injector and fuel pump output
-meth/pump uses less fuel which means less output needed from the injectors and fuel pump
-both have a higher corrosive value then gasoline with meth seeming to be worse (correct me if im wrong)
-lots of the east coast dont have e85 available yet and in some places it is hard to acquire anyway

If you have anything else to add or correct me on please speak up.

TxEvo8 · Jul 14, 2009, 03:36 PM

Meth significantly cools the intake charge, eliminating heat soak, or the need for a larger intercooler.

8thWonder · Jul 15, 2009, 07:13 AM

I've seen no adverse effects to E85 so far. I do switch between 93 & the corn every once in awhile too. Having come from running methanol, I did experience a problem with my iac controller which can be a known result from running it. Not to mention if your meth pump fouls up, it could be catastrophic for your motor.

project_skyline · Jul 15, 2009, 09:29 AM

No comment on the achievable power on both?

Jim in Tucson · Jul 15, 2009, 10:44 PM

I think the question is one of risk.

There is always some measure of risk in every engine modification. Our goal as mod junkies is to maximize power while minimizing risk.

So, as a superior fuel to gasoline, which is less risky meth injection or E85?

I chose E85.

8thWonder · Jul 16, 2009, 08:28 AM

^^Well said. From what I've seen it seems like more power can be gained from E85. These boards are filled with threads on people making great power from the E. It's a matter of preference though and ultimately how much risk you're willing to put up with.

project_skyline · Jul 16, 2009, 12:32 PM

I really wish some of the vendors would join in on this like the last one.

TTP Engineering · Jul 16, 2009, 07:10 PM

As an authority in methanol injection, our opinion is that both have their benefits. Methanol adds fuel whereas you will not need as much injector or pump.

To make over 525whp+ on ethanol you will need 1250-1650cc on stockish to 35R turbos AND a second fuel pump.

Trying to switch back to 93 on 1650cc's might be a little difficult as you are running injectors three times the size of the stock 560cc and getting them to inject such a small amount of fuel may be rough.

Meth injection is only used when needed and its on call waiting for you to summon it. You can get by with stock injectors on stock turbo as far as it will go. A single pump will supply over 600whp with a 900cc meth injector or set of injectors.

Ethanol= +/- 105oct, large injectors needed $450, 2nd fuel pump $99, Twin Pump housing $399, poor fuel mileage.

Methanol injection- 93octane when not used, 110oct+ with injection and cooling properties of evaporation, stock injectors can be used in many cases, 2nd fuel pump not needed, twin pump housing not needed. Meth injection kit $394-983 for quality kit from TTP or Aquamist.

Fuel mileage on ethanol is rough on large injectors. 40-50 miles and you can find yourself through close to a half tank of fuel.

Methanol injection, 93 octane fuel mileage. Excellent gas mileage even while in boost as methanol injection supplies 20-30% of fuel which can be removed from pumpgas injectors.

GST Motorsports · Jul 16, 2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTP Engineering

Fuel mileage on ethanol is rough on large injectors. 40-50 miles and you can find yourself through close to a half tank of fuel.

That is a bit dramatic and should be restated to close to 1/4 tank, not 1/2 tank. Tuned correctly you get around 3-4mpg less than gasoline on the stock ECU retaining closed loop.

My personal evo has been averaging that for over a year running E85, about 120 miles to half a tank but we all know the last half goes a little bit quicker than the first half.

We have locals running 1450cc's averaging the same.

Meth vs E85, both have their places, each have their advantages and disadvantages. It's up to each user to understand and determine what is better for them, where they live and their goals...

- Bryan

SpoolnupTuning · Jul 16, 2009, 10:07 PM

Well said Bryan! There is bad with both but there is good with both!

TTP Engineering · Jul 16, 2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GST Motorsports

That is a bit dramatic and should be restated to close to 1/4 tank, not 1/2 tank. Tuned correctly you get around 3-4mpg less than gasoline on the stock ECU retaining closed loop.

My personal evo has been averaging that for over a year running E85, about 120 miles to half a tank but we all know the last half goes a little bit quicker than the first half.

We have locals running 1450cc's averaging the same.

Meth vs E85, both have their places, each have their advantages and disadvantages. It's up to each user to understand and determine what is better for them, where they live and their goals...

- Bryan

What size injectors are you using? We've seen worse mileage moving from 1050cc to 1650cc at 0% STFT.

diiirk@AwdMotorsports · Jul 16, 2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GST Motorsports

That is a bit dramatic and should be restated to close to 1/4 tank, not 1/2 tank. Tuned correctly you get around 3-4mpg less than gasoline on the stock ECU retaining closed loop.

My personal evo has been averaging that for over a year running E85, about 120 miles to half a tank but we all know the last half goes a little bit quicker than the first half.

We have locals running 1450cc's averaging the same.

Meth vs E85, both have their places, each have their advantages and disadvantages. It's up to each user to understand and determine what is better for them, where they live and their goals...

- Bryan

agreed, im averaging around 200-220 to a tank on e85 with 1200s, 2 pumps, rail and fpr.

GST Motorsports · Jul 16, 2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTP Engineering

What size injectors are you using? We've seen worse mileage moving from 1050cc to 1650cc at 0% STFT.

STFT at 0% is impossible as STFT is the ever-changing closed loop trim control to regulate stoich. Maybe if the car is not running you could log 0% STFT, or in transition from 02 to STFT to LTFT.

I like to see +/- 3 when optimized. This is realistic.

project_skyline · Jul 17, 2009, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GST Motorsports

That is a bit dramatic and should be restated to close to 1/4 tank, not 1/2 tank. Tuned correctly you get around 3-4mpg less than gasoline on the stock ECU retaining closed loop.

My personal evo has been averaging that for over a year running E85, about 120 miles to half a tank but we all know the last half goes a little bit quicker than the first half.

We have locals running 1450cc's averaging the same.

Meth vs E85, both have their places, each have their advantages and disadvantages. It's up to each user to understand and determine what is better for them, where they live and their goals...

- Bryan

I must be doing something horribly wrong then lol.

I want to get 120 to half a tank. If you can give me some hints or tips to getting it I'll paypal you $150!

GST Motorsports · Jul 17, 2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by project_skyline

I must be doing something horribly wrong then lol.

I want to get 120 to half a tank. If you can give me some hints or tips to getting it I'll paypal you $150!

Make sure your scaling and latency are as good as they can get. Also additional timing at cruise helps. I've been running 40-45* at cruise for about a year now. 2005 Evo 8.

Of course if I just drive around town and have fun, the mileage goes down.