Brake

wake · Mar 9, 2009, 02:22 PM

I'm looking to enhance my brake system and I would like to know wath you guys got for your RAs.

I just bought front/rear Hawk brake pads and now I want to know what I'm gonna buy for the disc. I plan to do some lapping but I'm more on the streets than the track.

Thanks for your help.

RALLIART15 · May 15, 2009, 01:46 AM

go to trinetmotorsports.com they have disks for us with like 18 different patterns

migueralliart · May 15, 2009, 07:03 AM

My suggestion is:

Buy calipers off a 1997+ GSX eclipse , get them rebuild and while you have them disassembled send the calipers to be ceramic coated in the pistons and the pad surfaces that touches the piston, coat the outside of the caliper with heat emmiting material. Trust me this WORKS, you will have more pad area, you can also check if you can switch to a bigger diameter brake pump (perhaps the 3000 VR4). SS lines and some good rotos (not ebay ones), and you will have a much better brake experience.

rdc · May 15, 2009, 03:09 PM

I wouldnt suggest changing the brake pump to a larger diameter one. The pump creates pressure in the brake lines, so following the equation

Press= Force / area

If you increase the diameter, you will be reducing the brake line pressure, thus subtracting brake force at the calipers. You will only want to do that if the calipers that you have give so much of a gain in that it actually hurts braking performance. Also, with the GSX calipers there isn't that much of a difference in braking force from the stock ones. The main advantage of the calipers is a bigger selection of pads.

SS brake lines will give you the biggest difference in pedal feel and as of rotors, the more mass it has, the more heat it will be able to dissipate, meaning STAY AWAY FROM CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS!!

migueralliart · May 17, 2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdc

I wouldnt suggest changing the brake pump to a larger diameter one. The pump creates pressure in the brake lines, so following the equation

Press= Force / area

If you increase the diameter, you will be reducing the brake line pressure, thus subtracting brake force at the calipers. You will only want to do that if the calipers that you have give so much of a gain in that it actually hurts braking performance. Also, with the GSX calipers there isn't that much of a difference in braking force from the stock ones. The main advantage of the calipers is a bigger selection of pads.

SS brake lines will give you the biggest difference in pedal feel and as of rotors, the more mass it has, the more heat it will be able to dissipate, meaning STAY AWAY FROM CROSS-DRILLED ROTORS!!

The GSX calipers ARE different they have 2 pistons the Ralliart one has 1 piston, the GSX pads have more area therefore best contact. Combine that with the bigger diameter pump and it will clearly outperform the the stock ones. I've actually done some brake testing in the highway next to a friend of mine that has a Ralliart with stock brakes and I stopped 1.5 cars earlier than him so IT DOES make a difference, but again I have a vr4 pump, slotted only rotors (they do help), ss lines, EBC green pads, brake fluid upgrade and the coating.

Matt_Jagg7 · May 18, 2009, 01:38 PM

So the 1997 GSX front and rear calipers fit our 04 RA's? Or just the front? And they bolt righ up, no modification?

snakoil · May 20, 2009, 07:17 AM

Wake, after quite a lot of reading on the web I found that for the usage you plan on doing, good pads and stock rotors might be good enough. Don't waste your money on slotted or cross drilled...from what I read you are better getting really good pads and change the rotors more often.

I bought brand new oem quality rotors at 20$ each at Probec(st-leonard)
This is the best deal I found in the region

IF you want to go further, the eclipse GSX galiper swap might be the way to go.

rdc · May 20, 2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueralliart

The GSX calipers ARE different they have 2 pistons the Ralliart one has 1 piston, the GSX pads have more area therefore best contact. Combine that with the bigger diameter pump and it will clearly outperform the the stock ones. I've actually done some brake testing in the highway next to a friend of mine that has a Ralliart with stock brakes and I stopped 1.5 cars earlier than him so IT DOES make a difference, but again I have a vr4 pump, slotted only rotors (they do help), ss lines, EBC green pads, brake fluid upgrade and the coating.

Did both of you have the same brand and model of tires during testing? From what speed?
Anyways, I know that the GSX calipers aren't single piston, but what I meant was that that even with the 2 pistons, since their size is smaller than our single piston, in this particular case the gain shouldn't be as much as one might think.
I made a small program for the UPRM FSAE team to calculate brake forces and pressures from different master cylinders and calipers and I'll be more than glad to calculate and post them if someone gives me the master cylinders' diameters and the piston diameters (it wont take into account the gain given by the brake booster though). Also, I was given a brake design presentation by a GM High Performance Vehicles Operations Engineer and it clearly states:
"

The brake pad gain is equivalent to the coefficient of friction.
Brake pad size and shape do not influence gain or the coefficient of friction
Pad size is dictated by:
- desired pad life
- thermal mass "

As for the master cylinders (MS), given the same caliper piston volume, a bigger diameter MS will create less clamping force. Usually when people do need to upgrade their pumps, it's to compensate for the much higher volume of the aftermarket capipers (like changing into a 4 , 6 or 8 piston caliper so be a little exagerated).

Joyrider · May 21, 2009, 06:31 PM

Rotors won't help very much, it's a piece of metal that will dissipate heat !

OEM brake or plain Brembo (as OEM) is the perfect option combine with very good brake pads. When my brake pads will need to be change, probably my rotor will need a new life or to be replaced because my pads are PRETTY agressive on them.

You will see them this summer and yes my car is noisy like a bus but it stops like crazy !

Spooky_Neo · May 22, 2009, 05:15 AM

Another good point of getting GSX calipers is that the pads are cheaper, from what I recall.

Stick with good pads. OEM rotors should be good enough, or Brembo plain at Perry

Maybe change your brake fluid to SuperBlue and get some SS brake lines, this might help the response of braking as well as their performance.

Joyrider · Jun 20, 2009, 11:53 AM

Get the cheapest rotors and simply get 2 sets...... OEM are fine BTW, here's the proof !

snakoil · Jun 21, 2009, 01:02 PM

I vouch for the same idea as you but what are those pictures supposed to prove?
how do we know wich one is the oem rotor? how do we know it is the same corner at the same moment with the same brake pressure?

**otter** · Jun 21, 2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakoil

I vouch for the same idea as you but what are those pictures supposed to prove?
how do we know wich one is the oem rotor? how do we know it is the same corner at the same moment with the same brake pressure?

I think you're reading too much into his post. They're just a couple cool pics, there's no real data you can pull from them.

Joyrider · Jun 21, 2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakoil

I vouch for the same idea as you but what are those pictures supposed to prove?
how do we know wich one is the oem rotor? how do we know it is the same corner at the same moment with the same brake pressure?

Stock rotor can handle the heat.... they don't warp either. Their just picture of Yuggy's car and mine at the racetrack.

Aggressive pads and stock rotor is good enough for the track, so it is more then enough for the street.

If those we're cross drilled, they we're dead with a big crack !

migueralliart · Aug 3, 2009, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdc

Did both of you have the same brand and model of tires during testing? From what speed?
Anyways, I know that the GSX calipers aren't single piston, but what I meant was that that even with the 2 pistons, since their size is smaller than our single piston, in this particular case the gain shouldn't be as much as one might think.
I made a small program for the UPRM FSAE team to calculate brake forces and pressures from different master cylinders and calipers and I'll be more than glad to calculate and post them if someone gives me the master cylinders' diameters and the piston diameters (it wont take into account the gain given by the brake booster though). Also, I was given a brake design presentation by a GM High Performance Vehicles Operations Engineer and it clearly states:
"

The brake pad gain is equivalent to the coefficient of friction.
Brake pad size and shape do not influence gain or the coefficient of friction
Pad size is dictated by:
- desired pad life
- thermal mass "

As for the master cylinders (MS), given the same caliper piston volume, a bigger diameter MS will create less clamping force. Usually when people do need to upgrade their pumps, it's to compensate for the much higher volume of the aftermarket capipers (like changing into a 4 , 6 or 8 piston caliper so be a little exagerated).

I believe somebody already did these calculations and the main benefit is a greater pad contact area and a wider selection of pads available, I am sure that if somebody swaps the stock calipers (1 piston) for the ones I have (GSX 2 piston) they will definitively feel the advantage , changing to a bigger brake pump might even give more grip to that additional area pad. I would be ok if you wanted to do a 60mph-0mph test and you will find that I will brake a couple of feet earlier than you, ( I know this because I tested it with a friend that had the 1 piston caliper).