pads & rotors gone = all new brakes... questions

[blackhawkRA]

Alright I suppose I should start by running through a quick timeline.

About a year ago, I put on EBC redstuff pads all around. Until then, totally stock brake equipment. Didn't bed them in well, but was happy with them. Since, then I've really just been putting around; no track days, only 2 auto-x's, and lots of highway miles. I've been happy with the EBC's, no complaints at all.

A few weeks ago, they started to get noisy and it sounded as though at least one corner may have been dragging. After a while, it got to the point where I would get a metal-metal grinding going on at very low speeds, usually only when leaving and arriving at locations (parking lots, driveways, etc.). Other than these moments when it would grind, I felt confident in the brake system and stopping performance was just fine (didn't do any precise tests). The grinding became more frequent until I realized I had to intervene before something bad happened.

Here's is what has happened:
Both the front caliper rubber piston boots have broken. That would be part #8 in the following diagram:


Fair enough, seems to not be an extremely uncommon problem. Now for those of you who haven't seen or heard of the effects of this condition: the job of this piston boot is to keep grease in and the elements (dust, water, etc.) out. Once this is compromised, outside world things make their way inside, bad things happen. The piston is essentially forced further out than it should be (due to rust, dust, whatever). So now you have the potential of dragging the pads when your foot is off the brake pedal. Even just a slight amount, especially if constant, will create tons of wear. And tons of wear is just what happened.




For a comparison (which isn't quite fair since brake bias and weight distribution come into play, but conveys the idea), the rear pads are looking great with tons of meat left (I'd say most) and the rotors are just dandy, nice and smooth. But both the front rotors are extremely warped (running your finger radially across give an extremely rough and uneven texture). And that metal-metal grind, was coming from the front-driver inner pad being basically shot. Pretty much nothing left to it.



So in summary, front caliper piston boots were compromised, and my brake system on both sides in the front ate my pads and rotors alive. Good thing is, sitting right next to me are some brand spankin' new R1 concepts premium (Canadian-made) rotors, slotted and dimpled, for front and back. yay!! I'll put pics up when i can find an SD card. I ordered through AIM and their customer service and forum-pricing was awesome! And they were able to machine slots and dimples and get them to my doorstep in just a couple days!! Nothing but good things to say about R1 Concepts!

Hawk HPS pads should ship out tomorrow thanks to Summit.

Now the problem lies in that replacing what's been destroyed is only lining up new shiny expensive stuff to get destroyed. The actual problem must be remedied, which lies in both the front calipers (how both piston boots got pwnd recently after being fine all these years is beyond me, I don't rally or drive over anything rough like gravel). So I'll be calling up the dealerships in the San Jose area tomorrow since I'm still in the 40k's on mileage. If they wanna work with me, I can drop my car off next week and I'll be out of the country for a week anyways, so that would be great. If the dealership doesn't come through, though... I need to find replacement calipers REAL quick because after getting back from outa the country, I'm gonna drive about 1000 miles over winter break in total. I can't do that with one pad gone and three others severely compromised.

Enter www.rockauto.com. yayy they have A1 Cardone calipers in stock right now! Part # 192615 for right and Part # 192614 for left. Now, I have some questions.


end background section
------------------------------------------------------------------------
begin question section


Has anyone ever replaced RA calipers themselves? If so, were they made by this brand? If OEM, do you know the price? I've heard like $500-600 for OEM's just searching around.

Has anyone else ever run into this problem (on any car)? If so, what did you do with the calipers?

Also, for those who know about the operation of calipers: by your estimation based on my description, has the piston and its surrounded metal parts been warped, damaged, or in any way deformed, making the calipers useless? Because I'm sure people will say to just replace the pistons with a kit. But if more than the pistons have taken any transformation, or rusted too much, I'd rather not risk a brake failure or less of a worst-case, eat up my new nice rotors and pads. If there's a risk, I'd rather just go through the hassle and money of new calipers altogether. But many how-to's online go through rebuilding the caliper because of this piston boot failure and all they do is clean the crap out of everything with alcohol, brake fluid, something of that nature. If I can do that and rest assured that it's back in the same shape it was from the factory, I might end up doing that.

If so, anyone know about part # or any way to find out for the damaged caliper piston boots (seals)?

Also, upon realizing that my rear pads still have most of their life to live and they've outlived their poor neighbors up the block by a long shot, I now have an excess of perfectly usable rear pads. I will soon have used EBC redstuff rear pads w/ maybe 80% left that I won't necessarily need. I might consider selling a set to anyone interested (probly ideal for someone who mix-matched with OEM-ish pads in the rear and wanna do a cheap upgrade to a great pad there), depending on the outcome of this situation. Or maybe I'll keep the EBC's for auto-x or something.

I'm gonna order RRM SS brake and clutch lines tonight, and see if I can't get them here soon, if I'm gonna be re-doing the calipers since I'll have to bleed the fluid in that case anyways.

While I'm at it, I'll move to a better fluid. Any suggestions?

K thanks for reading, sorry for retardedly long post.

[otter]

tl;dr.

Do not replace the entire caliper, it'll be a waste of your time. Go to your local auto parts store and simply ask for a caliper rebuild kit. Will cost you about $10 and provides you all the seals to rebuild the caliper (partsamerica has it listed on their website, so their stores will have it - Murrays, Schucks, Checkers, Autozone.) With your situation, though, you don't even really need to rebuild it, just remove the old boot, clean out any contamination, and put on the new one. Finally, flush your brake fluid. If you're not racing much, just some regular synthetic dot3 will do just fine.

I'm kind of confused on how your brakes got so bad. When you last did your brakes, did you not install the wear bar correctly on the pads?

[Thomar]

wow, havent seen damage or wear that bad on my old mans t100.

i've never had much luck with rebuilding calipers. what i did is went to a wholesaler, they gave me 100 bucks back for bringing them the old calipers for rebuilding and i installed 2 new ones.
not on the RA, btw..

[otter]

Originally Posted by Thomar

wow, havent seen damage or wear that bad on my old mans t100.

i've never had much luck with rebuilding calipers. what i did is went to a wholesaler, they gave me 100 bucks back for bringing them the old calipers for rebuilding and i installed 2 new ones.
not on the RA, btw..

He should be able to avoid a rebuild. His inner seals are probably fine, just needs to replace the boot, which he can do without removing the piston.

[blackhawkRA]

Originally Posted by otter

He should be able to avoid a rebuild. His inner seals are probably fine, just needs to replace the boot, which he can do without removing the piston.

I'm really hoping that's the case Otter. Won't this depend though on whether the pistons are scored or pitted?

So I called every auto parts store in the area and finally found one rebuild kit. I'll get the second one on Monday.

Brake shops want to charge me $75-100 to do a rebuild.

I've been reading about how different people approach this situation (failed boot) and it seems that I should hone the pistons. Now I'm thinking since I'm in a rush to have a working system by next Friday, would it make sense to just replace the boot and do some minimal surface cleaning w/out disconnecting the calipers? Then once I have time, I can put on the SS lines and bleed, put in new fluid, etc. at which point I could hone the pistons if needed? My only concern would be... would this lead to any extra wear on my new rotors/pads?

Originally Posted by otter

tl;dr.

I'm kind of confused on how your brakes got so bad. When you last did your brakes, did you not install the wear bar correctly on the pads?

sorry for the long initial post otter

Actually when I put these pads on, I had a shop do it because after some track days my rotors seemed warped so I had him resurface them and put pads on at the same time, since I was also in a hurry at that time. It wouldn't surprise me if the idiot didn't install the wear bar correctly.

[blackhawkRA]

update:

good news - pistons are perfectly fine. just rebuilt one caliper, waiting for kit to rebuild the other. basically my biggest problems are solved. thanks otter for your insight - you were right. praise the Lord that the o-rings didn't get breached.

Now I'm gonna bleed the whole system since I accidentally got air in there. Anyone wanna confirm the bleeding order? I understand it to be LR, RR, LF, RF (furthest from ABS to closest).

Also, I'll have to bleed the clutch now... anybody know if I should bleed the clutch after all four calipers since its closest to the master cylinder?

I'll write up a how-to for our front caliper rebuild when I have time.

[otter]

It's actually RR, LF, LR, then RF. I would bleed the clutch last, since it feeds out of the brake cylinder, if you do it last, that ensures it'll get all clean fluid.

[blackhawkRA]

Alright, I've got everything replaced and about to bed in.

Thanks for your help Otter!

[rdc]

When you took out the shot pads, did they have the shims from the original pads put on? One thing to do is take them form the old pads and put them on the new ones because they act as a heat insulator (basically and theoretically speaking, the more shims, the better the insulation). Maybe you made one or two or more very hard stops that got the temp cooking, thus weakening the outer seal .

When I put the Greenstuff on the front of my car, even though they already come with a built in shim, I still put the one I took off the original pads, and when I consulted with an automotive engineer that I know, he confirmed what I just said above.

[binarysleep]

How much was the rebuild kit and what did it include?

[Thomar]

Otter answered that one earlier;

Go to your local auto parts store and simply ask for a caliper rebuild kit. Will cost you about $10 and provides you all the seals to rebuild the caliper (partsamerica has it listed on their website, so their stores will have it - Murrays, Schucks, Checkers, Autozone.)

[blackhawkRA]

I believe the factory shims are still on my old pads, I'm gonna put them onto my current ones this weekend hopefully. Thanks rdc!

Originally Posted by binarysleep

How much was the rebuild kit and what did it include?

It costed me about $6 a piece, I can get the part numbers if you like (more than one brand makes them). It should include the piston boot, rubber piston seal, and metal boot retaining clip. Be careful though, the first one I bought didn't have the piston seal and i had to re-use my old one. Someone had yoinked it some time before and they re-stapled it, so make sure all three parts are in the bag and it's sealed like new.

piston boot and retaining clip:


rubber piston seal:


Let me know if you need any more info!