The Ralliart Fuel Injector upgrade thread.

[Ralliart_on_LSD]

I found this link over at the eclipse forum. To be honest i think this is one of the best threads i think i have ever seen.

http://club4g.org/board/gs/11698-inj...ld-fit-gs.html

all thanks go to Infuriated at club4g.org

You can click the link above and watch HIS thread, or just read this below (I copy pasted his list.) some valuable infomation here.

again... all thanks go to Infuriated at club4g.org

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Here is a list of similar style injectors that I could find that in theory should be Plug'n'Play.. However, I can not confirm whether or not they will be Plug'n'Play as they haven't all been tested.
Also it is strongly recommended to retune your car using a Air/Fuel Ratio Wideband 02 Sensor and an AEM FIC + BrianJ Harness or a Hackish reflash. (Special Note for Ralliart people, there is no BrianJ Harness out for the AEM FIC, but the reflash from Hackish is available)

Complete Theoretic Fit list:
Year Make/Model Engine Size/Color Part #

400cc+
02-05 Subaru WRX 440cc (425cc) - Lt. Blue Body (2004 was greenish) #3920 (Often referred to as OEM USDM WRX 440cc Injectors or Light Blues)
2001+ JDM Subaru STI, STI-RA, S202 Impreza 565cc (540cc) - Thin Pink Body #3910 (Often referred to as JDM STI Pinks)
06-09 Subaru WRX 560cc top feed injectors
89-92 Mazda RX-7 NA 440cc - Blue Top #195500-5740
89-92 Mazda RX-7 NA 460cc - Red Top #195500-2010
89-92 Mazda RX-7 TURBO 550cc - Purple Top #195500-2020
04-08 Mazda RX8 425cc - Yellow Body #195500-4450
89-92 Toyota Supra 7MGE TURBO 430cc – Black Top


400cc -
89-92 Toyota Supra 7MGE NA 305cc (312cc) – Light Green Top #23250-70080
93-95 Toyota Supra 3.0L 312cc - Maroon Top #23250-46030
Toyota 3SGE 315cc – Pink Top
89-91 B2600 Truck 326cc - Gray Top #195500-2150
Mazda 323 GTX TURBO 360cc - Black Top #195500-2130
Celica/MR2 3SGE NA 370cc (372cc) - Green Top #23250-74160

The numbers in brackets are the actual flow tested numbers according to: http://www.injectorrx.com/densotf.html

Fully Confirmed List:
The 02-05 USDM OEM Subaru WRX 440cc Injectors
The JDM Subaru STI Pink 565cc Injectors

Confirmed but not 100% Plug'n'Play:
89-92 RX-7 Injectors



WRX Injectors Buyers Guide:

Step One: Figure out your goals.

Are you going to run 5-9psi boost on stock internals? Then get the 02-05 USDM OEM Subaru WRX 440cc Injectors as they can withhold up to around 12psi

Are you going to upgrade internals and go high boost? Then get the JDM Subaru STI Pink 565cc Injectors as they can withhold up to around 350hp

Plan on going above 350hp? Then get some modified WRX Injectors. But make sure that they have been flow tested!

Still unsure? Then go to http://www.injectorrx.com/sizing.html and fill out your hp goals, number of injectors (4), B.S.F.C. (.49ish?), duty cycle (80%) etc. and it will calculate the right injector size for your specific turbo application.

Step Two: Once you know your goals, make sure you are getting the correct ones

As a rule of thumb, they have to be top feed high impedance injectors.

The OEM WRX Injectors from North American Models (USDM) are top feed and therefore work.

The OEM WRX STI Injectors from North American Models (USDM) are side feed and therefore do not work.

The OEM WRX STI Injectors from Japanese Models (JDM) are top feed and therefore work. The way to tell whether they are Japanese is they should be listed as JDM (Japanese Domestic Market)... and in the WRX STI's case they will be pink color and slim body..

Also be careful when buying WRX Injectors as many have been modified from a moderate cc amount to a very large cc amount, so look for words such as stock or oem. Also make sure that they mention the cc amount!

Step Three: Look at the correct places

The best place and first place you should look is:
NASIOC

They would usually be listed under The Private 'For Sale' Classifieds>Engine/Power/Exhaust

If that does not work.. then try ebay.



EVO Injectors Buyers Guide:

In terms of going the Evo route you have two possibilities.

The first one would be to get the full AMS evo8/evo9 fuel rail, but in this case you will need to replace the stock fuel pump to add return lines. Note: EVO Injectors are not High Impedance so they will require resistors.

The second one would be to use EVO 8/9 injectors with our rail, but in this case you have to change the plug connectors out and add resistors.

The EVO route is doable, but by no means a plug'n'play solution, so therefore I recommend going with the WRX route which is full P'n'P. Also if you want to upgrade your fuel rail RPW makes a 4g69 fuel rail which can be found here: http://www.rpw.com.au/shop/index.php...mart&Itemid=31

Hope this thread can help you guys, and if you know of any injectors that are plug'n'play which haven't been mentioned here, please let me know.

[Ralliart_on_LSD]

somebody should sticky this. whenever infuriated updates the list, i will to.

[LithiumX]

what do u need to tune for the bigger injectors, will the rrm piggy work?

[hackish]

The only thing demonstrated to work with larger injectors is a reflash or a complete standalone. There are a number of reasons for this and some piggybacks come closer than others to actually working.

The stock ECU has a number of correction factors including coolant and intake air temp. Large injectors do not work with these and most piggybacks do not take them into account. If you live in a place where it is always 80F outside it's less of an issue. If you live in this frozen wasteland to the north where it's -10F in the winter and 100F in the summer you've got trouble.

A lack of IAT correction means your idle will be all over the place. When you've been sitting for a long time the intake air temp is very high. Fire it up and poof it stalls - why? IAT correction on big injectors is too extreme. Putt around town on a hot day and all of a sudden the car is stumbling all over the place - again IAT corrections.

Voltage compensation. Although some piggybacks do allow for basic battery voltage compensation many do not. In short when you're cranking the batt voltage is lower and it takes the fuel injectors longer to open. Larger injectors have an entirely different profile. In the stock ECU this is controlled through the injector latency table where it adds pulsewidth to the injector according to the battery voltage. This is a common cause of ye olde oscillating idle. Even worse if you have an underdrive pulley.

I suppose I should probably write an entire article on this...

-Michael

[migueralliart]

Nice thread, I like this..... Hey ralliart_on_lsd I saw you on club4G, apparently those guys have accomplished what we couldn't, they have a company named Road Race ENGINEERING that sells them a plug and play harness for the 4g69 eclipse that has an integrated circuit that fixes the MAF issue(temporarily) for the AEM FIC and provides ignition advance/retard , apparently the same thing somebody did here with a SAFC (apexi) but they have integrated that into the harness.

They have had some issues with it trying to tune it, lucky us we have hackish to crack our ECU.

Althou I wanted to mention they also managed to use a CAN OBD2 cable to datalog .

THe thread with the FIC ignition advance and the CAN dataloger AEM FIC IGNITION AND FUEL


Thread with a how to setup the FIC FIC how to tune


Still I strongly believe that the hackish reflash beats the hell out of this AEM FIC

[Infuriated]

Hello guys, I am pleased to see that you ralliart owners are benefiting from my Fuel Injector thread @ Club4g.org, I would like to welcome all of you to share your discoveries and knowledge regarding this topic.. If you have information to add or correct please feel free to post it here or at club4g.. and I will make sure to update it

Cheers,
Infuriated

P.S. LSD, I have updated the original thread

[Ralliart_on_LSD]

info updated... thanks infuriated

[HondaHunter78]

Originally Posted by LithiumX

what do u need to tune for the bigger injectors, will the rrm piggy work?

Ok first those of us in the 4g community are able to tune for bigger injectors with the AEM FI/C. We have a member over there BrianJ who made a P'nP harness for the 4G. I don't know if that will work for you guys, but I know he has done stuff with 6g75 in other platforms like the Galant. I am sure if your 4g69 harness and wiring schematics are similar to ours he might be able to do something for you guys to. Granted the FI/C is only a piggy back, but does allow for timing advance, retard and Injector tuning.


LSD glad to see you posted this here and we can all help each other out.

[hackish]

HondaHunter, it's already a known thing that the F/IC does not work correctly with the ralliart computer. Among other things the trouble is that it stays in closed loop until you're WOT. The eclipse only does until about 40%.

-Michael

[HondaHunter78]

Really I did not know that. So the RA stays in closed loop till WOT. Is that because they don't have the Drive-by-Wire. Very Interesting I didn't think there would be that much of difference. So It must be a ***** to tune because closed is constantly fighting and trying to retune anything you do.

[hackish]

They are DBW throttle control and yes most piggybacks won't work properly because of this fact. There is no effective way to trick it into going into open loop. The factory computer has some pretty significant authority over the fuel delivery too.

-Michael

[HondaHunter78]

Ok though one question though. In the 4g anytime you punch it it goes into open loop regardless is this not the case with the Ralliart

[HondaHunter78]

Originally Posted by migueralliart

Nice thread, I like this..... Hey ralliart_on_lsd I saw you on club4G, apparently those guys have accomplished what we couldn't, they have a company named Road Race ENGINEERING that sells them a plug and play harness for the 4g69 eclipse that has an integrated circuit that fixes the MAF issue(temporarily) for the AEM FIC and provides ignition advance/retard , apparently the same thing somebody did here with a SAFC (apexi) but they have integrated that into the harness.

They have had some issues with it trying to tune it, lucky us we have hackish to crack our ECU.

Althou I wanted to mention they also managed to use a CAN OBD2 cable to datalog .

THe thread with the FIC ignition advance and the CAN dataloger AEM FIC IGNITION AND FUEL


Thread with a how to setup the FIC FIC how to tune


Still I strongly believe that the hackish reflash beats the hell out of this AEM FIC

As far as this miguel all tuning bugs with the FI/C have been worked out. The only thing is as you guys already know anything you change in closed loop the factory ecu is gonna over-ride. But from what I now know we have it a lil easier than you guys as we enter open loop at 40% TPS and you guys don't. And we also have Hackish reflash :bigthumb: for the current time though as Canada is a far drive I think the current best situation would be a hackish basic reflash fine tuned with the FI/C for us in the 4g anyways.

[hackish]

Originally Posted by HondaHunter78

Ok though one question though. In the 4g anytime you punch it it goes into open loop regardless is this not the case with the Ralliart

I don't have the eclipse map in front of me but I believe it kicks into open loop at about 32% as read on the accelerator position. The ralliart it doesn't happen at some RPM's until 104% (you know what that means). Although there are some other criteria effectively it's either not at all or only at WOT. With forced induction you can see why this is a huge problem.

-Michael

[HondaHunter78]

Alright man, that sucks though so you reflashing or stand alone is about there only options